Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

Zao is life · Nov 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
You mean like you trying to say that the mass bodily resurrection of believers at Christ's second coming is the first resurrection rather than Christ's resurrection alone as Paul teaches in 1 Cor 15:20-23?

Adam's death was Adam's death alone, according to your logic.

Adam = mankind. Adam's death = mankind's death. Death came to all men through Adam's death.
The last Adam's resurrection from the dead = mankind's resurrection from the dead. The resurrection comes to all mankind through the last Adam's resurrection from the dead. Christ is The Resurrection and the Life.

One death. One resurrection. The "2nd" resurrection can only take place after the 2nd death - and that's not going to happen because death is destroyed at the time of the 2nd death.

This is 100% Christianity, no matter who twists and changes it to suit theology that is in error.

Zao is life · Nov 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Does the 2nd death have any power over them right now? Please answer this question. Yes or no, please.

You use a lot of words to say nothing. What isn't obvious to me yet is whether or not you are willing to acknowledge that the second death CURRENTLY has no power over the dead in Christ.

More questions asking me to state the obvious after I already explained it to you. The tone of your posts have been insulting too. It leads me to believe that there is something wrong with they way you understand the gospel.

One death. One resurrection from death.
Adam's death = mankind's death. Adam's death came to all mankind.
The last Adam's resurrection from the dead = mankind's resurrection from the dead. The resurrection of the last Adam from the dead comes to all mankind. Christ is The Resurrection and the Life.

The 2nd death kicks in after the resurrection of the rest of mankind who had not died in Christ, those who names are not found in the lamb's Book of Life.

The 2nd death will have (future tense) no power of those who died in Christ, so they are already safe in Christ's hands. So in that sense, the 2nd death has no power over them already - but the 2nd death has not kicked in yet.

Your questions, as well as your complaints and protests about my posts when I answer your questions, are becoming beyond bizarre, because first you repeatedly ask me to state the obvious when I've already stated what I have again stated above, then you complain that I state the obvious.

I have you on ignore from now onward because of the insulting tone of your posts, in which you post from a position of doctrinal authority (yet your questions and statements betray the fact that you don't understand the most basic tenets of Christianity. If you did, then you will understand that the 2nd death will have [future tense] no power over those who have already died in Christ, and you would have stopped asking the same ridiculous question over and over) - and then you become insulting in your posts on top of that. So because of this I have you on ignore from now onward.

Your last insulting post demanded that I need to state the above yet again when it's 100% obvious based on the long post I already posted in reply to your questions.

sovereigngrace · Nov 19, 2020

Timtofly said:
The Cross also gave those in Paradise an incorruptible body. NOT IMMORTAL. Immortality comes at the Second Coming. The church complete both living and in Paradise are presented as one whole body complete and glorified. Immortality is glorification. We are the complete image of God. The image Adam lost when he disobeyed God and literally died physically and spiritually. He lost the incorruptible body and recieve a corruptible one. His spirit was separated from the soul, spiritual death. His image was passed on to all of us in Seth. Genesis 5:1-3

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created Adam, in the likeness of God made he him,

2 Male and female created he them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day that they were created.

3 Now Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a child in his own likeness after his image, and called his name Seth.

God created Adam in God's image. Seth was born in Adam's sinful, corruptible, WITHOUT a God spirit (robe of white, immortal body).

John says only at the 5th seal will the soul recieve the robe of white, the God spirit part of the image of God. Soul is used in the term of Adam's dead image. The souls under the altar were still not glorified. The spirit, with God, re-joined to the body as the robe of white.

The view of a soul is a son of God incomplete. In Revelation 6, the soul was incomplete because it needed to join with the spirit. That has not happened to most of Adam's descendants. Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and John being caught up in the spirit, may be the only exceptions besides Jesus Christ, who had all 3 parts of God's image as a human without sin. Now Jesus's physical body could die and decay. IMO, that body returned to dust and was changed in the tomb. The resurrected body was incorruptible, but only after He ascended, because Mary could not touch a soul that was just a ghost or shell. That is sticking to the point the incorruptible body is in Paradise. Jesus came back with that permanent body and that was what Thomas touched.

Revelation 20:4 is the same soul concept. There were thrones to judge and they gave out incorruptible bodies. This time only an incorruptible body was the issue. It is not the same as the church. The church is who is handing out, these soul's incorruptible bodies from Paradise. We are not told the mechanics of how it works. We are not told how these thrones were arranged but they were between heaven and earth, because these souls could not enter Paradise without these incorruptible bodies, and they remained on earth after getting incorruptible bodies. They were not glorified. They just could not die the second death. The second death being a demon spirit joined to the soul, devoid of Light and God's image. Do they need a body in the lake of fire?

Claiming I am making this up goes with the territory of Biblical interpretation. A body is a body and there is only one type after death. If you attempt to spiritualize it, that is changing the whole dynamic of the passage in your own whatever we say interpretation. That is the territory of spiritualizing God’s Word. Revelation 20:4 specifically states a resurrection of a soul, judged, and given life, a body to live in. An incorruptible body that cannot die the second death. They are NOT made immortal gods. They have billions of offspring in the same type of bodies for 1000 years. They reign because they are the millions of foreparents to all those generations of humans.

If you want to change Scripture and make it fit your theology, God will not stop you. Point to one Scripture verse I have altered to bring glory to God. I am here to honor God, not give you my private interpretations, cause I have nothing to offer, but God's Word.

You have presented absolutely no biblical evidence here that proves we get an incorruptible body when we die and an immortal body at the Second Coming. That is because they are the same thing and they occur at the same time. You are playing with words to support your innovative eschatological invention. Instead of voicing your own opinion, you need to present hard evidence. The reality is, you cannot because it doesn't exist. Scripture depicts the dead in Christ as souls or spirits after death.

sovereigngrace · Nov 19, 2020

Timtofly said:
See, you do not take any Scripture serous that proves you wrong. Since you cannot even give your thoughts on 2 Corinthians 5. Those verses are avoided because they are proof you are wrong. Paul's says absent from this body is to be present with Christ in a permanent body. Permanent being incorruptible. I guess you cannot even give me what happens to your body, but just dust in the ground. Your soul is naked and unclothed. You cannot even claim 2 Corinthians 5 for yourself, if you just toss those verses out as not relevant.

Instead of constantly ducking around the questions, present the actual verse references that prove your claims, quote the verses. You don't because the Scriptures don't say what you are claiming.

DavidPT · Nov 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I have made this same point to him several times as well, but he just doesn't get it. He is 100% futurist, so he is not able to comprehend seeing things any other way.

What exactly does it mean to be 100% futurist anyway? Provide some examples. For example, if I read something in any of the 4 gospel accounts, and conclude that some of those things have already been fulfilled, in what way does that make me a 100% futurist?

Spiritual Jew said:
I'm personally leaning towards seeing the 42 months/1260 days references as being references to the whole New Testament era up until Satan's little season. For example, in Revelation 11 the two witnesses prophesy for 1,260 days while the Gentiles (heathen) trample on the holy city for 42 months (same time period as the 1,260 days in my view). It is after the 1,260 days of the testimony of the two witnesses that the beast ascends out of the pit to kill them and their dead bodies lie in the great city for 3.5 days. This is all figurative, of course. But, I would equate the 3.5 days to Satan's little season rather than the 1,260 days/42 months. This is something I'm still looking at, though. This belief is not set in stone.

Though you have yet to adopt this position, wouldn't this mean this 42 months and the thousand years are one and the same? Wouldn't this also mean the beast has to have already ascended out of the pit where you place the beginning of the thousand years, the fact it is unreasonable that there can even be this 42 months in question unless the beast ascends out of the pit first? You have claimed in other posts that I'm usually not logical whatsoever about things, and that I only think I am. And here you are proposing things such as I what I have quoted above, while at the same time implying it is never you also that is not being logical about things at times, it's only me that is.

IMO, this 42 months in question is key in determining whether Premil or Amil is the correct position. This 42 months obviously can't parallel the thousand years. That obviously means it either has to precede the thousand years or it has to follow the thousand years. If it can be undeniably shown to follow the thousand years, that would undeniably prove Amil, debate is over. Thus far no one has remotely undeniably shown that to be the case.

BABerean2 · Nov 19, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Your questions, as well as your complaints and protests about my posts when I answer your questions, are becoming beyond bizarre, because first you repeatedly ask me to state the obvious when I've already stated what I have again stated above, then you complain that I state the obvious.

I have you on ignore from now onward because of the insulting tone of your posts, in which you post from a position of doctrinal authority (yet your questions and statements betray the fact that you don't understand the most basic tenets of Christianity. If you did, then you will understand that the 2nd death will have [future tense] no power over those who have already died in Christ, and you would have stopped asking the same ridiculous question over and over) - and then you become insulting in your posts on top of that. So because of this I have you on ignore from now onward.

Your last insulting post demanded that I need to state the above yet again when it's 100% obvious based on the long post I already posted in reply to your questions.

Are you the same guy who said "I could be wrong.", just a few weeks ago?
That was a very humble statement rarely seen on this forum.

You are talking to some here who used to believe the Premill doctrine, but we had to let go of it when we could not get it to agree with the whole of scripture.

Unfortunately, when some of us cannot defend their doctrine based on scripture, they begin to condemn those who disagree with them. That spirit of condemnation often reveals whose doctrine is not found below.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

.

DavidPT · Nov 19, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Unfortunately, when some of us cannot defend their doctrine based on scripture, they begin to condemn those who disagree with them. That spirit of condemnation often reveals whose doctrine is not found below.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

.

If an Amil were to do the exact same things you feel Fullness of the Gentiles has or has not done, would what I quoted above by you equally apply to them as well, or do things like that only apply to Premils, regardless that both Premils and Amils might do things like what you feel Fullness of the Gentiles has or has not done, in particular, what I have underlined above?

Zao is life · Nov 19, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Are you the same guy who said "I could be wrong.", just a few weeks ago?
That was a very humble statement rarely seen on this forum.

You are talking to some here who used to believe the Premill doctrine, but we had to let go of it when we could not get it to agree with the whole of scripture.

Unfortunately, when some of us cannot defend their doctrine based on scripture, they begin to condemn those who disagree with them. That spirit of condemnation often reveals whose doctrine is not found below.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

.

1. The poster I was talking to first told me (in this thread) that he does not wish to interact with me anymore, since he has a problem with the content of my posts when I reply to his questions.
2. The poster I was talking to then told me that "Actually, he does want to continue the discussion with me", as though I need to stick around at his whim to be insulted by him. However, I said nothing at the time about this, and continued to answer him.
3.The poster I was talking to then went ahead and posted insulting replies to me again to my posts which answered his posts.

4. Most important of all: The poster I was talking to is not you. So why are you jumping in to interfere?

I will have you on ignore also from now onward, because clearly, you are not here to peacefully exchange views with those who disagree with you, but wish to create disharmony (and your post above shows that to be the case, since it was not you who I had been interacting with).

Timtofly · Nov 19, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Both body and soul of believers will be reunited at the Second Coming and New Jerusalem will be our place of residence.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

When you say reunited you clearly seem to indicate we get the fallen sinful Adamic bodies back. You never clarify your position.

So we are literal pillars, yet John's 1000 years is not literal? How can this make any logical sense, when you get a literal meaning from symbolism, and turn literal words into your own symbolic private interpretation?

Spiritual Jew · Nov 19, 2020

Timtofly said:
Stop saying immortal bodies. Why do you keep misquoting me?

Incorruptible bodies are immortal. Immortal bodies are incorruptible. It shouldn't matter if I say immortal or incorruptible.

incorruptible definition: not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

immortal definition: living forever; never dying or decaying

Zao is life · Nov 19, 2020

DavidPT said:
IMO, this 42 months in question is key in determining whether Premil or Amil is the correct position. This 42 months obviously can't parallel the thousand years. That obviously means it either has to precede the thousand years or it has to follow the thousand years.

If it can be undeniably shown to follow the thousand years, that would undeniably prove Amil, debate is over. Thus far no one has remotely undeniably shown that to be the case.

During that 42 months the beast ascends out of the abyss, according to Revelation 13 and 17.

That beast existed at one time, did not exist when John received the Revelation, but John was told that it would ascend out of the abyss and go to perdition.That means it could not have existed before John's time.

Another beast called the beast from the earth will cause all to erect and image to the first beast, and anyone who refuses to worship the beast, his image, or receive his mark or the number of his name on their right hands or foreheads, will be killed.

So the souls of those who had been beheaded for refusing to do just that, who are spoken of in Revelation 20, and the souls of those seen in heaven after having gained victory in death for refusing to do just that, who are spoken of in Revelation 15 just before the wrath of God is poured out, can only be seen living and reigning with Christ for a thousand years after these events of the 42 months (as described in the Revelation) have already taken place.

Therefore either the 42 months took place just before the close of the last age (around AD 30) and the wrath of God has already come upon the world and Jesus has already returned, OR it's coming at the close of this age, and the millennium has to follow.

2+2=4, but only for those who can accept it.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 19, 2020

Timtofly said:
He made NO mistake. They misunderstood him. He corrected their misunderstanding.

The soul leaves this body on earth and enters the body in heaven. How much more clearer does Paul have to be?

Who misunderstood him? Is what he said in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 true or not? if it's true, and of course it is, then that means we will not be changed to have incorruptible and immortal bodies until the last trumpet when Christ returns.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 19, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
1. The poster I was talking to first told me (in this thread) that he does not wish to interact with me anymore, since he has a problem with the content of my posts when I reply to his questions.
2. The poster I was talking to then told me that "Actually, he does want to continue the discussion with me", as though I need to stick around at his whim to be insulted by him. However, I said nothing at the time about this, and continued to answer him.
3.The poster I was talking to then went ahead and posted insulting replies to me again to my posts which answered his posts.

Grow up. Why don't you use my name? Do you think anyone here doesn't know who you're talking about? You use insults in every post you make, so take the log out of your own eye the next time you talk about me.

4. Most important of all: The poster I was talking to is not you. So why are you jumping in to interfere?

I will have you on ignore also from now onward, because clearly, you are not here to peacefully exchange views with those who disagree with you, but wish to create disharmony (and your post above shows that to be the case, since it was not you who I had been interacting with).

Such a childish response. If you can't handle it when people disagree with you then why are you here? Maybe you should post on the Premil Safe House forum for awhile where you'll find more agreement with your views.

DavidPT · Nov 19, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
During that 42 months the beast ascends out of the abyss, according to Revelation 13 and 17.

That beast existed at one time, did not exist when John received the Revelation, but John was told that it would ascend out of the abyss and go to perdition.That means it could not have existed before John's time.

Another beast called the beast from the earth will cause all to erect and image to the first beast, and anyone who refuses to worship the beast, his image, or receive his mark or the number of his name on their right hands or foreheads, will be killed.

So the souls of those who had been beheaded for refusing to do just that, who are spoken of in Revelation 20, and the souls of those seen in heaven after having gained victory in death for refusing to do just that, who are spoken of in Revelation 15 just before the wrath of God is poured out, can only be seen living and reigning with Christ for a thousand years after these events of the 42 months (as described in the Revelation) have already taken place.

Therefore either the 42 months took place just before the close of the last age (around AD 30) and the wrath of God has already come upon the world and Jesus has already returned, OR it's coming at the close of this age, and the millennium has to follow.

2+2=4, but only for those who can accept it.

While I do tend to still think there are a few things that appear to fit Amil better than it does Premil, how does any of what you submitted here appear to fit Amil better than Premil as well? It doesn't, not even remotely, and everything you have submitted here agrees 100% with the texts involved. I don't know why Amils are in denial of that? Even if they still don't want to agree, at least admit that the beast has to ascend out of the pit before there can ever be these 42 months, and that this 42 months also has to involve the false prophet, and that the false prophet obviously has to be alive and well in the end of this age in order to be cast alive into the LOF. If this false prophet is a human being, the false prophet can't be someone that was already around and alive 2000 years ago. It would have to be someone born in the last century at least. If the false prophet is not a human being, where did it come from, then? It is never said to have ascended out of the pit as well.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 19, 2020

Timtofly said:
That is what you keep saying yourself. I claim that the physical body exchange happens at physical death and you keep saying it is both. The physical happened at the Cross and again at the Second Coming. How can it happen if these in Paradise already have their permanent body? We do not prevent those dead (physically) from getting a permanent body in Paradise. Why do you deny (prevent that fact from being your reality), when Paul claims it cannot be prevented? The Cross made entrance to Paradise possible, and only an incorruptible body can be in or enter into Paradise.

You cling to the word soul from so many verses, taking them out of context. That is being hyper literal about the interpretation of the word soul. Soul is a general state of being without a specific context in the text pointing out how God is dealing with a soul. Soul, being the only thing we are. We are not our body, and we are not our spirit. The only thing we are is a soul. The author in each instance may just as well use "hey you". John in Revelation 6 could have just said hey you martyrs, your robe of white is on it's way. Should he have included those who died peacefully in their sleep? Are only certain souls getting this robe of white? Being hyper literal makes a distinction in the body of Christ that need not be there.

We are made up of body, soul and spirit. If what you were saying was true then how do you explain these verses:

1 Thess 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Timtofly · Nov 19, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You have presented absolutely no biblical evidence here that proves we get an incorruptible body when we die and an immortal body at the Second Coming. That is because they are the same thing and they occur at the same time. You are playing with words to support your innovative eschatological invention. Instead of voicing your own opinion, you need to present hard evidence. The reality is, you cannot because it doesn't exist. Scripture depicts the dead in Christ as souls or spirits after death.

Then you miss the whole point about 2 deaths. You seem to be a a nihilist and only one death, without resurrection at all. When a human dies, that is it. They immediately go to eternal life or eternal death. I think the church as a whole would condemn that as a heresy.

If you claim there is no distinction between the two deaths, then you can not have a distinction between what those deaths represent. Then you interpret all scripture with that mind set. You cannot deny a resurrection, so you pretend to agree with other amil, while privately not accepting resurrection.

The soul is who you are. John has to present it that way. You just deny the literal state of those already resurrected with Christ in Paradise. Since Jesus now has a physical body and not just declared a soul, why would those in Paradise be without a body? You would have to prove that Jesus does not have a body, no?

Timtofly · Nov 19, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Instead of constantly ducking around the questions, present the actual verse references that prove your claims, quote the verses. You don't because the Scriptures don't say what you are claiming.

Instead of addressing me, address the chapter. You seem to only attack posters and not even give your interpretation of God's Word. Should I point out that only about 3 of your 20 points have Scripture? The other 17 are just opinion. Then you get on my case for not doing your homework for you.

Timtofly · Nov 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Who misunderstood him? Is what he said in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 true or not? if it's true, and of course it is, then that means we will not be changed to have incorruptible and immortal bodies until the last trumpet when Christ returns.

He was addressing living humanity. Paul was not writing to those in Paradise. That century they would not prevent the dead. They were planning on The Second Coming then, not after billions of humans arrived in Paradise in the last 1990 years. Not all would die, but all were changed. They were changed then, they are still changing now. Some are still alive today, and still not preventing the change.

Timtofly · Nov 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
We are made up of body, soul and spirit. If what you were saying was true then how do you explain these verses:

1 Thess 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

There is a distinction between the 3. If you have your spirit or another spirit then you do not have the Holy Spirit. The soul and spirit are divided. One is on earth and the other in heaven with God. I will let you decide which is which. The spirit of man is the last separation and completes the image of God, only when the church is completed. If you do not need the Holy Spirit, then you have let a demonic spirit in. The spirit of a reprobate, that can never become a son of God.

The body, soul, and spirit are the three distinct parts of the image of God. The soul cannot die. The soul can loose the body in physical death. The first death. The soul can loose the spirit, that which is God in us, that is the second death.

The contrast is given by John and Paul as putting on a robe of white, our spirit. Compared to a demon spirit that takes over the mind from the inside.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 19, 2020

DavidPT said:
Even if they still don't want to agree, at least admit that the beast has to ascend out of the pit before there can ever be these 42 months, and that this 42 months also has to involve the false prophet, and that the false prophet obviously has to be alive and well in the end of this age in order to be cast alive into the LOF.

Why do we have to admit to such a thing? Prove to me that ascending from the sea is the same thing as ascending from the pit and then I will agree with you. Can you do that?

What I see in Revelation 11 is a figurative time period of 42 months/1260 days occurring BEFORE the beast ascends out of the abyss/pit. What do you make of that?

Revelation 11:1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. 7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

You think you have such a strong handle on all of this, so I'm sure you can clearly explain how you conclude that the beast has to ascend out of the abyss/pit BEFORE the 42 months in Revelation 13 even though it's shown to ascend out of the pit AFTER the 42 months/1260 days in Revelation 11.

Is there any reason to think that the 42 months/1260 days of Revelation 11 is different than the 1260 days/time, times and half a time from Revelation 12 or different than the 42 months of Revelation 13? I don't believe so. If that's the case then that time began around the time of the first coming of Christ because in Revelation 12 it says the woman (the church) is taken care of for 1,260 days (a time, times and half a time) right after the dragon, Satan, and his angels are cast out of heaven, which happened when Christ ascended to heaven almost 2,000 years ago.

Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

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