Is morality objective, even without God?

[Bradskii]

Two points: There are no self-validating moral rules, and you will do what's right whenever you think it's right.

You either do that or you do what you're told. Even if you think it's wrong.

 

[partinobodycular]

Two points: There are no self-validating moral rules, and you will do what's right whenever you think it's right...

... you still end up in with the same conclusion. As the sole authority of right and wrong, you are, 1) an anarchist and, 2) there is no objective morality.

You're assuming that the only possible outcome to the lack of a transcendental authority is anarchy. Why should this be true?

Aren't you just as capable of concluding that murder is wrong as I am? In fact aren't the vast majority of people capable of concluding that murder is wrong?

The lack of a universal authority for right or wrong doesn't equate to an inability to discern right and wrong.

What do you think the knowledge of good and evil gave us... nothing?

 

[Bradskii]

Aren't you just as capable of concluding that murder is wrong as I am? In fact aren't the vast majority of people capable of concluding that murder is wrong?

Ah, but it's written in our hearts. Or, as I prefer to put it, coded in our genes (you can either give God the credit or natural selection - which actually amounts to the same thing for a lot of people).

 

[Aaron112]

Death

What do you think the knowledge of good and evil gave us... nothing?

 

[partinobodycular]

Death

I'm curious, do you think that Adam made the right choice?

 

[Aaron112]

Whether he did or not, will it make any difference to you , to me, or to anybody anywhere ?

I'm curious, do you think that Adam made the right choice?

 

[Astrid]

Here's the thing though, I absolutely, positively agree with this. What I don't agree with however is the idea that those 'transcendental standards' require a 'transcendental being' to validate them. They're valid in and of themselves.

I would argue... and I hope that you would agree, that God would value "One Gentile, who without the law, does by nature the things required by the law", over a thousand "Christians" who on that day will lament "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out devils, and in your name do many wonders?"

One of the above is a true Christian, and all of the others aren't. My goal is to be like that Gentile, to have the law written on my heart, and not just preached to me from some pulpit and supposedly validated by some book.

I will try to do what is right, simply because it's right, and for no other reason than that. And if your God is real, then He will understand that He cannot reach me via some book or some preacher... He's going to have to be more personal than that.

Those lacking in the self respect that goes with integrity
wont understand your post.

 

[partinobodycular]

Whether he did or not, will it make any difference to you , to me, or to anybody anywhere ?

To you, it may make no difference at all, but to me, it means everything. For my choices are possible, only because of his choice. I have both the gift and the burden of the knowledge of good and evil, and I carry those with me every moment of my life. They uplift me when people are righteous, and they exasperate me when we're not. But in every instance, no matter how disheartening, I wouldn't choose to give them back.

But more importantly perhaps, I don't think that God would either. In all of creation the greatest gift is the one bestowed on Adam... the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't think that that was a mistake, and so I don't see how it can make no difference to anyone, anywhere.

 

[Aaron112]

That brought sin and death to the world.
Nowhere in Scripture is it called nor referred to as something good nor beneficial nor a gift or good from above. It has horrible consequences every day in every household in every country. (as far as known)

In all of creation the greatest gift is the one bestowed on Adam... the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[partinobodycular]

That brought sin and death to the world.
Nowhere in Scripture is it called nor referred to as something good nor beneficial nor a gift or good from above. It has horrible consequences every day in every household in every country. (as far as known)

Yet God placed it there, and you and I can ponder why, only because He did. So I'm still curious... knowing this, do you think that Adam made the right choice? Or would you, knowing what you know now about the consequences of the knowledge of good and evil... give it back?

 

[Aaron112]

Yet God placed it there, and you and I can ponder why, only because He did. So I'm still curious... knowing this, do you think that Adam made the right choice? Or would you, knowing what you know now about the consequences of the knowledge of good and evil... give it back?

Just like or similar to sexual sin, the pure innocence can never be gotten back.

Would you drink hiv infected blood to get the government benefits from being so sick ?

 

[partinobodycular]

Just like or similar to sexual sin, the pure innocence can never be gotten back.

That wasn't the question. It was a hypothetical.

Knowing what you know now about what we've gained from the knowledge of good and evil, would you give it back if given the choice to return to ignorance?

 

[Aaron112]

if given the choice to return to ignorance?

New International Version
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

 

[partinobodycular]

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Is it God that's commanding that we repent, or is it our own conscience that's commanding that we repent?

To me it doesn't matter, because it's not so much to whom one repents... but simply that one chooses to repent. Not because they have done evil, but because they have fallen short of their own desire to do good.

The only God that matters to me is the one that's in here . I have no concern at all for the one that's in a book. Still, I have no problem with someone choosing to personify God. It's what they do in the name of that God that concerns me.

 

[Aaron112]

YHVH is not contained in a book, in a building, in a country, in the world, in the universe, .....
He is beyond infinite in every way - indescribable.

Without repentance to YHVH, as written in HIS INSTRUCTIONS,

there is no forgiveness of sin. ie. no way to be healed nor saved.

Your thoughts and conscience and life is simply a wisp here today and gone tomorrow.

Without forgiveness, only judgment awaits.

Is it God that's commanding that we repent, or is it our own conscience that's commanding that we repent?

 

[o_mlly]

You're assuming that the only possible outcome to the lack of a transcendental authority is anarchy. Why should this be true?

an·ar·chy
[ˈanərkē]
noun

1. a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority or other controlling systems

Aren't you just as capable of concluding that murder is wrong as I am? In fact aren't the vast majority of people capable of concluding that murder is wrong?

Even the vast majority in agreement on a moral rule does not equate to everyone willingly accepting an authority external to themselves.

The lack of a universal authority for right or wrong doesn't equate to an inability to discern right and wrong.

One cannot claim to discern right or wrong for themselves and simultaneously willing accept an external authority in contradiction.

What do you think the knowledge of good and evil gave us... nothing?

As a Christian, I've already answered that question. What do you think that knowledge gave you?

 

[o_mlly]

Those lacking in the self respect that goes with integrity
wont understand your post.

And the depth of those who are at risk of drowning in a bird bath will pretend they do understand.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Genesis 4:10 And He said, “What hast thou done? The voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto Me from the ground

I think you're mixing up my posts. That was a question about my hypothetical completely isolated man.

 

[Ana the Ist]

All right
A man in solitary who is given food and temperature control
Nothing more, just bare stone walls and floors.
Maybe not even light.
Not deprived in a way that could stimulate an action or reaction

Not in solitary in prison...we need not imagine him confined.

As I pointed out at the start....he can have a whole planet to himself.

However, there are hermits, religious men who have walled themselves away and lived quiet lives of peaceful contemplation.
For some mystics a cell is a sought after experience, the life of a contemplative.

Again, we aren't speaking about solitary confinement.

IF morals are universal, then to harm yourself is an immoral act.

Ok...we can keep this one. We can probably agree self harm is anything that seriously, permanently, or fatally injures the man....right?

To be in harmony with the universe is a moral act.

This is a bit too vague...one person's harmony can be another's discord.

That comes from within and from without because without God in that cell

Again, we aren't talking about a cell.

A man without God who is in isolation will chew on himself

Would it be fair then to say in the absence of the judgement of others, man does as he pleases, unless he has a god to stand in for the people as a judge.

Even then, most morals disappear....as he becomes limited to behaviors he can do to himself, and those he can do to God (keep the sabbath holy, not use his name in vain, etc).

Would you agree that without any god...morals disappear entirely for this solitary man?

 

[Ana the Ist]

He's dead, isn't he?

I can only assume yes.

If we were to judge who was telling the truth though...we can only be certain of the snake. He doesn't appear to have died of fruit.

The serpent lied telling them they will not die.

From eating the fruit.

What is all over the OT is that man's sinning brings suffering and death into the world.

Sure.

Seems like a teaching moment. The point is that Adam knew that he had committed evil.

Once he ate the fruit or before?

What is the lesson?