Is morality objective, even without God?

[Neogaia777]

Of course. It was a patriarchal society. If it was a matriarchal one then you might have had God sending her daughter to save us.

I don't know if there are certain differences between males and females in that males are supposed to primarily lead or be the head or primary decision maker all of the time, or if that's just because starting out it was mainly just because of certain physical differences between males or females or not that caused us to be destined to almost always start out being patriarchal or not, etc?

But it certainly would be a different world if God was a woman, and she sent her daughter to save us though, lol.

God Bless.

 

[Zaha Torte]

If you mean that there is a such thing as blanket statements that can ever be made by anyone regarding someone else's 100% for sure eternity or eternal salvation or destination, then, no, there is no such thing.

I don't believe that my claim that there is such a thing as an objective Good and Evil is a "blanket statement" about anyone.

However - I can say that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father - the only means of eternal salvation.

And where it says it in the Bible was where some mere human was overstepping their bounds, or boundaries, etc, because only the God/One who is the Judge can decide such certainties.

Not according to God who claimed that Man had become like Himself to know Good and Evil. (Genesis 3:22)

Man's coming to know that Good and Evil exist - that there are objective truths - does not necessarily mean that Man will always know the correct way to act.

Yet God has prepared the means for Man to come to know the better way - God's way,

"Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it." (Deuteronomy 1:17)

And to get to your question, no mere human can say a thing is 100% always wrong, or 100% always right, because not only does he not know that ever, but he is also not the judge of such certainties.

That was never my claim.

My claim was that objective Good and objective Evil exist - not that Man knows all things.

So if there is objective morality, then not only will only God and God alone know it, but it will probably also involve not one single thing always being 100% right or 100% wrong when it comes to absolutely everybody all of the time and always. Man does not know that, etc.

There is objective morality, and Man has come to know that it exists, and Man can come to better understand it by relying on the Lord.

We are fallen and suffer the conditions of mortality - so none of us will be perfect in this life - yet God Himself came into our world and showed us that it was possible for a mortal to live a perfectly sinless life.

The Lord Jesus Christ is our Exemplar and if we come to have faith in Him, humbly repent of our sins, submit to His authority and rely on Him - we can not only overcome the effects of the Fall, but we can gain appropriate experiences and wisdom.

The closer you come to the Lord the more you will become like Him and be able to better discern the Good from the Evil - this is one of the many purposes of mortality.

 

[QvQ]

If it is the will of God, asyou said, then if two people who say that they know what that is gives my contradictory advice, then how do I know which one of them is right (notwithstanding that they could both be wrong)?

Providence is the totality of circumstances. If there is a bottle of booze, and you choose to drink. I do not.
That is due to the circumstances by which we are bound or unbound, as you would have it.
Those are not subjective. Those are built into Providence. Frankly hard liquor makes me sick so it is not a choice even if it is also my moral choice. And it requires a bottle of booze, also Providence.
It is Providence. Even though we make two different conclusions to the presumably same set of circumstances, the circumstances are, in fact, entirely unique.

That thought again
If a person is in a remote area, entirely alone, a hermit
What is the morality of that one?

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't believe that my claim that there is such a thing as an objective Good and Evil is a "blanket statement" about anyone.

There are some in the Bible.

However - I can say that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father - the only means of eternal salvation.

On this we agree.

Not according to God who claimed that Man had become like Himself to know Good and Evil. (Genesis 3:22)

Man's coming to know that Good and Evil exist - that there are objective truths - does not necessarily mean that Man will always know the correct way to act.

I think death primarily comes from it when you think you know, or can know, the absolutes of it, and when you think you judge another's eternal destiny or standing with God for 100% sure with it, etc.

I also don't know if we retained the knowledge of Adam and Eve in that area either, etc. I have a theory that all the trees were trees of knowledge, but the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was the knowing of the absolute difference between absolute good, and absolute evil, which was not meant for man at the beginning, etc.

And I think Adam and Eve had a glimpse of that for a minute and it scared the living bejesus out of them, etc, and after that they died spiritually, and started to die physically, etc. I don't think the glimpse was preserved past them knowing it, or seeing it for a brief period of time, etc. But it seems that our future now is to one day know it after the judgement, or in will be revealed to us during the judgement, but it will not kill us physically or spiritually anymore at that point, or after that, etc.

That was never my claim.

My claim was that objective Good and objective Evil exist - not that Man knows all things.

If it exists, but man cannot always know it for 100% sure, but is only revealed to us in the afterlife, but not in this life, then does it exist in this life before that? Or are we just stuck being a law unto ourselves that changes like the wind, etc?

There is objective morality, and Man has come to know that it exists, and Man can come to better understand it by relying on the Lord.

We can only go by what laws or rules we have currently made or have for ourselves, and we must go by them, etc, but this may not be the exact same judgement as God in the afterlife after this, etc.

We are fallen and suffer the conditions of mortality - so none of us will be perfect in this life - yet God Himself came into our world and showed us that it was possible for a mortal to live a perfectly sinless life.

I'm not so sure about this? as I don't know anyone who could/can ever fulfill the perfect requirements of the law except for Jesus.

The Lord Jesus Christ is our Exemplar and if we come to have faith in Him, humbly repent of our sins, submit to His authority and rely on Him - we can not only overcome the effects of the Fall, but we can gain appropriate experiences and wisdom.

I don't know that any of us can ever be 100% sinless, etc.

The closer you come to the Lord the more you will become like Him and be able to better discern the Good from the Evil - this is one of the many purposes of mortality.

Closer maybe, but all the way ever this side of life? I still don't know about that one really, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Jo555]

No. Good grief, why are you making this so hard...

Our decisions are obviously our personal beliefs about what is the best course of action. Based on the facts of the matter. If I give you no facts then you cannot make a decision.

 

[Bradskii]

Providence is the totality of circumstances. If there is a bottle of booze, and you choose to drink. I do not.
That is due to the circumstances by which we are bound or unbound, as you would have it.
Those are not subjective. Those are built into Providence.

In which case there is no such things as a subjective decision. Which makes no sense to me. You can't argue for moral decisions to be objective if you don't accept that subjective decisions exist.

 

[Jo555]

No, that claim has never been made. Please stop misrepresenting what has been explained to you. If you are in any doubt, then please use the quote facility and it will be cleared up.

We base our decisions on moral acts on the facts of the matter. You need facts presented before you can make a decision. You cannot make a decision in a vacuum. You need some information on which to base it. Now I cannot for the life of me put that any clearer.

I completely agree.

If it is the will of God, asyou said, then if two people who say that they know what that is gives my contradictory advice, then how do I know which one of them is right (notwithstanding that they could both be wrong)?

You have your own relationship with God and let Him reveal his Word to you, then you will discern which is correct.

 

[Jo555]

Got a little lost with the quoting, but wanted to say that a believer's decision is based on the love of God poured out in his heart. It is a Spiritual influence, not something based on the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Bradskii]

You have your own relationship with God and let Him reveal his Word to you, then you will discern which is correct.

No, that doesn't work. We know that as a a fact because different Christians who will tell you that they have a relationship with God will have contradictory positions on moral matters. Again, how would we know which person is correct?

 

[Bradskii]

Got a little lost with the quoting, but wanted to say that a believer's decision is based on the love of God poured out in his heart. It is a Spiritual influence, not something based on the knowledge of good and evil.

Same question as above.

 

[Jo555]

Got a little lost with the quoting, but wanted to say that a believer's decision is based on the love of God poured out in his heart. It is a Spiritual influence, not something based on the knowledge of good and evil.

To go on, part of the challenges Christians face is moving from conscience knowledge to Spiritually being led by God's Spirit.

 

[Jo555]

No, that doesn't work. We know that as a a fact because different Christians who will tell you that they have a relationship with God will have contradictory positions on moral matters. Again, how would we know which person is correct?

I answered it. You have your own relationship with God and let Him reveal it to you. Yes, it works. If you were in class and the professor asked a question and two students had contradictory answers, you ask the professor which is correct. He may say one or the other. He may say both are partially correct, but not fully. He may say both are in error.

A Christian stands on the Word of God revealed in his heart by God's Spirit and we are progressively growing in Him.

 

[Bradskii]

I answered it. You have your own relationship with God and let Him reveal it to you. Yes, it works. If you were in class and the professor asked a question and two students had contradictory answers, you ask the professor which is correct. He may say one or the other. He may say both are partially correct, but not fully. He may say both are in error.

A Christian stands on the Word of God revealed in his heart by God's Spirit and we are progressively growing in Him.

I'm not sure I can be explaining this correctly.

Jim has a moral problem. He prays for guidance and is given it. Jim says that God tells that X is wrong. Jane has exactly the same problem and prays for guidance. Jane says that God tells her that X is right.

Now there are way too many examples to give to indicate this. It's common throughout not just Christianity but throughout all religions that believe in God. Now Joe and Jane cannot both be right. Something cannot be both wrong and right at the same time. One of them is obviously not getting guidance from God. He can't give contradictory guidance.

So again, how do we know who is right?

 

[Tinker Grey]

So again, how do we know who is right?

The one that agrees with me, obviously.

 

[Jo555]

I believe the premise being made is that morality is subjective to the interpretation of man. Morality is subjective to man's interpretation.

The Christian / believer does not live by a moral code, but the love of God poured out in his heart. In other words, he is led by God's Spirit.

We aren't supposed to be partaking of the knowledge of good and evil. That is declaring our independence from God and being our own gods.

And many of us are still learning and growing in that, being led by the Spirit.

 

[Jo555]

I'm not sure I can be explaining this correctly.

Jim has a moral problem. He prays for guidance and is given it. Jim says that God tells that X is wrong. Jane has exactly the same problem and prays for guidance. Jane says that God tells her that X is right.

Now there are way too many examples to give to indicate this. It's common throughout not just Christianity but throughout all religions that believe in God. Now Joe and Jane cannot both be right. Something cannot be both wrong and right at the same time. One of them is obviously not getting guidance from God. He can't give contradictory guidance.

So again, how do we know who is right?

My answer is the same. How do you know which student is right if they both claim to be right. You ask the professor.

In our case, we go straight to God and allow his Spirit to reveal it. He may use another to start that process, but we all need to go to Him personally

 

[Jo555]

My answer is the same. How do you know which student is right if they both claim to be right. You ask the professor.

In our case, we go straight to God and allow his Spirit to reveal it. He may use another to start that process, but we all need to go to Him personally

Additionally, depending on the problem, God may have a different guidance for each, depending on where they are at in their journeys and what He is looking to do

 

[Bradskii]

The one that agrees with me, obviously.

Well, yeah. That's the spoiler. Don't tell anyone, but that will be revealed in due course.

 

[Bradskii]

My answer is the same. How do you know which student is right if they both claim to be right. You ask the professor.

In our case, we go straight to God and allow his Spirit to reveal it.

So if you go to God then He'll tell you whether X is right or wrong. His spirit will reveal it.

Let's pick one, shall we? Let's say that He tells you that it's wrong. So Jim was correct. God gave him the correct answer. And Jane was incorrect. But hang on. She took your advice and went straight to God and allowed His spirit to reveal it to her. But it was the wrong answer.

So why didn't it work in her case?

 

[Jo555]

I believe the premise being made is that morality is subjective to the interpretation of man. Morality is subjective to man's interpretation.

The Christian / believer does not live by a moral code, but the love of God poured out in his heart. In other words, he is led by God's Spirit.

We aren't supposed to be partaking of the knowledge of good and evil. That is declaring our independence from God and being our own gods.

And many of us are still learning and growing in that, being led by the Spirit.

The one that agrees with me, obviously.

Lol! That's funny.

Makes a good joke, but not necessarily true. I can appreciate a good chuckle though.