Is morality objective, even without God?

[Jo555]

But anyway, as i said before, appears we are standing on different foundations. You are entitled to your belief, and I am entitled to my belief by what i believe God has revealed to me.

I find conversations i like to dive in, but when it appears to not really be going anywhere it is my time to bow out and let the Lord's Spirit work as He sees fit.

I enjoyed the exchange.

In summary i will say that the believer doesn't live by a moral code, but by the love of God poured out in their hearts. It is a Spiritual thing. A whole different dimension. Moral codes are subjective to man's interpretation. Not disagreeing. I'm just saying we don't live by moral codes.

 

[Jo555]

So if you go to God then He'll tell you whether X is right or wrong. His spirit will reveal it.

Let's pick one, shall we? Let's say that He tells you that it's wrong. So Jim was correct. God gave him the correct answer. And Jane was incorrect. But hang on. She took your advice and went straight to God and allowed His spirit to reveal it to her. But it was the wrong answer.

So why didn't it work in her case?

Oh my goodness. Do you hear yourself?

You obviously don't believe it will work and i do? Let's leave it at that.

 

[Bradskii]

But anyway, as i said before, appears we are standing on different foundations. You are entitled to your belief, and I am entitled to my belief by what i believe God has revealed to me.

But you won't explain why He obviously gives incorrect guidance to different people. Or to put it another way, why some people are mistaken in believing that He has given them the correct guidance.

The follow up question to that would be to ask you if you are personally convinced that you are always right in thinking His guidance has been given. Alluding to @Tinker Grey's observation that people always seem to think that they are right when they say that they have been given guidance. I have never, in all my years on Christian forums been told 'I've been guided by God...but I think maybe I'm wrong about that'. It's always the person holding a different view is the one that's wrong.

 

[Jo555]

But you won't explain why He obviously gives incorrect guidance to different people. Or to put it another way, why some people are mistaken in believing that He has given them the correct guidance.

The follow up question to that would be to ask you if you are personally convinced that you are always right in thinking His guidance has been given. Alluding to @Tinker Grey's observation that people always seem to think that they are right when they say that they have been given guidance. I have never, in all my years on Christian forums been told 'I've been guided by God...but I think maybe I'm wrong about that'. It's always the person holding a different view is the one that's wrong.

As i said, different foundations. No point in going on. Whatever you are trying to prove, you failed. And maybe i failed with you too, but it isn't my job to convince you. My job is to speak the truth in love and let his Spirit speak to each one as He sees fit and reveal the truth to them. God bless.

At target now and have 2 min. To finish my shopping.

 

[Jo555]

As i said, different foundations. No point in going on. Whatever you are trying to prove, you failed. And maybe i failed with you too, but it isn't my job to convince you. My job is to speak the truth in love and let his Spirit speak to each one as He sees fit and reveal the truth to them. God bless.

At target now and have 2 min. To finish my shopping.

Holiday hours saved the day. Yay! Forgot about that. Hey, Merry Christmas.

Also, ask God these questions too, then wait for Him to reply in his time and way. Sonetimes He doesn't answer our questions because He knows it is just going to lead to more of the same questions and He prefers to reveal Himself to us.

There are other reasons too. If He wants to work on my patience with those like you, he may keep you in the dark until He gets what He is looking for from me.

But he does hear you. Keep asking, seeking, and knocking, with no hidden agenda because that will work as blinders to the truth.

 

[Bradskii]

As i said, different foundations. No point in going on. Whatever you are trying to prove, you failed.

Not trying to prove anything, Jo. Just asking you questions about who you think has the answer to moral problems when people say they have been given different guidance.

Enjoy your shopping...

 

[QvQ]

But you won't explain why He obviously gives incorrect guidance to different people. Or to put it another way, why some people are mistaken in believing that He has given them the correct guidance.

God does not give incorrect guidance.
There isn't any case where God would condone adultery, for instance.

 

[Aaron112]

But you won't explain why He obviously gives incorrect guidance to different people.

He tells quite clearly in His Word, in Perfect Wisdom, with Perfect Knowledge of All Things and all thoughts in everyone's heart.

He gives people over to believe delusions, whether their own, or delusions perpetrated by religious leaders (very common btw). He knows their hearts, and does not entrust them with the truth.

 

[Neogaia777]

Not trying to prove anything, Jo. Just asking you questions about who you think has the answer to moral problems when people say they have been given different guidance.

Enjoy your shopping...

They are not being honest probably. If they were, then they would know truth, and would therefore know God, and that's one of the ways you can know whether you are truly hearing from him or not versus maybe hearing from some other spirit, or maybe even a delusion of your own making, etc. (John 4:23-24)

Take Care/God Bless @Bradskii.

You have to get really, really honest about/with yourself and everything else before you can really truly know/hear from Him this way, etc, because when you are not, other lying or deceiving voices or spirits can get the chance to speak, etc. You also have to be pretty open, and 100% objective/neutral, and free from almost all bigotry, prejudice, or hatred or malice or bias with just about everything, etc. And again, if not, or you are not, then other lying or deceiving spirits/voices can get the chance to speak, etc. And you also have to be/stay pretty humble also, and admit when a thing causes you to honestly question, and not fear or be afraid of it, and be willing to change/adapt to certain new information when it comes up or about about certain things, etc.

And there's probably more, but that's all I have for you guys right now.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[partinobodycular]

He gives people over to believe delusions, whether their own, or delusions perpetrated by religious leaders (very common btw). He knows their hearts, and does not entrust them with the truth.

And how do you know that you're not one of the deluded ones? (Correct answer: you don't)

 

[partinobodycular]

Don't tell anyone, but that will be revealed in due course.

That'll be a shocker, when it turns out that nobody was right.

And the award goes to.....

 

[Jo555]

Not trying to prove anything, Jo. Just asking you questions about who you think has the answer to moral problems when people say they have been given different guidance.

Enjoy your shopping...

I did answer your wuest

But you won't explain why He obviously gives incorrect guidance to different people. Or to put it another way, why some people are mistaken in believing that He has given them the correct guidance.

The follow up question to that would be to ask you if you are personally convinced that you are always right in thinking His guidance has been given. Alluding to @Tinker Grey's observation that people always seem to think that they are right when they say that they have been given guidance. I have never, in all my years on Christian forums been told 'I've been guided by God...but I think maybe I'm wrong about that'. It's always the person holding a different view is the one that's wrong.

I did answer your questions, but it appears to me that I'm not giving you the answer you want, therefore, not falling for your trap and you are trying your very best to lure me in.

I could be wrong, but that is what I am discerning, and realize I may have missed it there, just don't believe so.

 

[Jo555]

I did answer your questions, but it appears to me that I'm not giving you the answer you want, therefore, not falling for your trap and you are trying your very best to lure me in.

I could be wrong, but that is what I am discerning, and realize I may have missed it there, just don't believe so.

Have a good night.

 

[Bradskii]

God does not give incorrect guidance.

Why do those who believe in God say they have been guided in completely the opposite direction in relation to others? We have a thread where people are currently disagreeing about whether wives should be subject to their husbands. Another where there is disagreement about whether a daughter should honour her abusive father. Others claim that God has indicated that lying is wrong...period. Others say that it depends on the circumstances. Some have been guided to accept abortion at a very early stage whereas others say it's not permissible under any circumstances whatsoever.

 

[Bradskii]

He tells quite clearly in His Word, in Perfect Wisdom, with Perfect Knowledge of All Things and all thoughts in everyone's heart.

He gives people over to believe delusions, whether their own, or delusions perpetrated by religious leaders (very common btw). He knows their hearts, and does not entrust them with the truth.

Do you honestly know anyone who says 'God doesn't entrust me with the truth'? I'm assuming that you'd consider yourself someone He would trust with it. The problem is that everyone I ask will give the same answer.

 

[Bradskii]

I did answer your questions...

I'm sorry, but I'm nowhere any closer to know who to believe if someone tells me that God has guided him or her to know that a given act is wrong and someone else says He has guided them to know that it's right. ;

 

[QvQ]

We have a thread where people are currently disagreeing about whether wives should be subject to their husbands. Another where there is disagreement about whether a daughter should honour her abusive father. Others claim that God has indicated that lying is wrong...period. Others say that it depends on the circumstances. Some have been guided to accept abortion at a very early stage whereas others say it's not permissible under any circumstances whatsoever.

That seems to be the "moral progress" you spoke of
There was a time when it was taught in schools that it was Never permissable to tell a direct lie.
Magazines had articles, starting about the 1970's that some lies, such as "white lies" were permissable.
Now telling lies depends on subjective,, "anytime it suits the purpose" circumstances.
Some Progress, aye?
However God does not condone a lie. That is the moral of the story.

 

[Bradskii]

That seems to be the "moral progress" you spoke of
There was a time when it was taught in schools that it was Never permissable to tell a direct lie.
Magazines had articles, starting about the 1970's that some lies, such as "white lies" were permissable.
Now telling lies depends on subjective circumstances.
Some Progress, aye?
However God does not condone a lie. That is the moral of the story.

So does God say that it's impermissible at any time? Or is it's OK under certain circumstances. And if it's the latter, then who decides?

 

[QvQ]

So does God say that it's impermissible at any time? Or is it's OK under certain circumstances. And if it's the latter, then who decides?

Either tell the truth or say nothing.
It is not OK under any circumstances to speak a falsehood

The problems you present are "moral relativism." That is subjective in that it is a Rule of No Rule.

 

[Neogaia777]

They are not being honest probably. If they were, then they would know truth, and would therefore know God, and that's one of the ways you can know whether you are truly hearing from him or not versus maybe hearing from some other spirit, or maybe even a delusion of your own making, etc. (John 4:23-24)

Take Care/God Bless @Bradskii.

You have to get really, really honest about/with yourself and everything else before you can really truly know/hear from Him this way, etc, because when you are not, other lying or deceiving voices or spirits can get the chance to speak, etc. You also have to be pretty open, and 100% objective/neutral, and free from almost all bigotry, prejudice, or hatred or malice or bias with just about everything, etc. And again, if not, or you are not, then other lying or deceiving spirits/voices can get the chance to speak, etc. And you also have to be/stay pretty humble also, and admit when a thing causes you to honestly question, and not fear or be afraid of it, and be willing to change/adapt to certain new information when it comes up or about about certain things, etc.

And there's probably more, but that's all I have for you guys right now.

Take Care/God Bless.

God and I speak to each other, or talk about things, but it's most usually only when I am completely unoccupied, and am not at all busy or engaged/involved with other things, etc. And while He helps me think, and is involved with all my thought processes when I'm just sitting around just thinking, He's never really gave me any real direct information, not directly anyway, about a specfic thing, and also doesn't usually give me much specific advice, or very much specific guidance/directions about specific things, etc. It's kind of like the therapist who doesn't want to get involved in your specific decision making, but will try to help you out only in your own reasoning and thinking, but ultimately doesn't want to just simply give you all of the answers, and also doesn't want to interfere or intervene or get involved in what should be your own thinking/decision making, etc, if that makes any kind of sense to you, etc. But, I have not yet figured out how to get or bring or have what I have with Him when I'm 100% unoccupied or distracted, anyway, I have not yet been able to figure out how to have that with Him when I am occupied or distracted or am involved/distracted by other things, etc, which with me is just about everything, etc. So I most usually have to be alone, and most usually at home, or out completely away from all other noises/people/distractions somewhere, and there can't be a whole lot happening or going on, and it most usually has to pretty quiet, and I just in general cannot be wrapped up in doing or worrying about other things, etc, and these are the times that I can hear from Him the most clearly, etc, but can't so much when things are not like that, or are not this way, etc, and it's probably because I just haven't been able to learn how to do that yet maybe, etc.

Anyway, He just helps me with my own thinking mainly, etc. But in order to talk to/with Him right now, I have to be 100% completely free of all other of what could potentially be any other preoccupations or distractions, etc.

God Bless.