• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,045
1,763
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟322,386.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What enlightenment rationalism has done is to allow us to reject some (but not all) metaphysics as just plain wrong. That it happens to be your metaphysics is too bad, but unavoidable.
My metaphysics. What is my metaphysics, how could you even know what that is as your not me. You may have some version of what you think that is but it won't be exactly what mine is. Likewise I cannot know yours.

We can determine some aspects and generalise like all humans seem to relate to some sort of metaphysical outlook beyond the physical world and that may be something innate in humans.

But as to determining which metaphysics is Truth I think the only way we can do that is through rationality. We are also created as rational and moral beings. Any metaphysical worldview should at least align with objective reality and our lived conscious experience. I don't think there is anything I have said that hasn't aligned with some rational basis or actual experience of the people who lived the events.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,045
1,763
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟322,386.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Has there ever been a time when secular society wasn’t headed down that path?
I think secular idea and morals can align with Christian worldview or the other way around if you wish. I think all humans have a sense of Gods laws or morals, at lease the core universal morals similar to Human Rights. Most people support the principles of Human Rights as though its like a unwritten law in the universe.

I think its more about how we metaphysically align ourselves and our worldview. Many cultures place importance of the spiritual but most people don't take it seriously I don't think. Theres a spiritual battle going on and many don't realise.

So I think we have drifted in and out of aligning ourselves with God over time and its been different for different cultures, parts of the world. Some say theres a Christian revival in China of all places while the traditional Christians are falling away and becoming more secular.

But what is secular. I don't think any culture really becomes religious free in some form or another. People say Woke is the new religion and in many ways it has many of the hallmarks.

Thats why I think fundementally its a spiritual battle and theres always some metaphysical belief that people and cultures hold or may hold several at once that are really behind whats going on.

But I think as the world gets smaller things are converging and people are becoming more polarised like its a battle of two worldviews.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,854
8,380
Dallas
✟1,090,364.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No I have to disagree. God’s expectations of morality are much higher than secular society’s expectations. Take pornography and fornication for example. It’s completely legal in most societies and absolutely forbidden according to God’s expectations. I do agree that God has given everyone a basic understanding of right & wrong but secular morality doesn’t align with God’s expectations.
 
Upvote 0

BCP1928

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2024
8,876
4,482
82
Goldsboro NC
✟265,176.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
The principle difference being rules about sexual behavior, some of which secular morality does not treat of as moral issues at all.
 
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,814
11,611
Space Mountain!
✟1,371,017.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I just seen the part where I was talking about how polititians are cultivating identity politics and division. Can you ellaborate.

Not really, something to do with ratifying the US Constitution but not familar with the details.
In sum, James Madison proposed that the structure of the politic in the U.S.A. be such that each group in society and its respective interests not be allowed to overshadow and dominate those of any other group and their interests. And it's been [more or less] that way ever since.................
The only way to "stop" Woke Ideology is to understand it and parse its legitimate concerns out from any questionable ideology that those who invoke it may have. If Christians persist in utterly dismissing it wholesale without doing the deeper, painstaking philosophical work of analyzing what's actually being said, and by whom, then all they'll do is cause further Proletariat forms of backlash among Woke individuals.

Do you understand what I'm saying? .... I mean, there's a reason I have a couple of Marxist theorists on my list of personal influences. Not that I'm a Marxist myself by any means, but that some of the theoretical and structural social gripes of someone like Pierre Bourdieu are relevant to the class and group conflicts that are seen at various levels of society. Christians all too often dismiss this with a mere wave of the hand----kind of like how they used to do with the issue of slavery not so many centuries ago.
Throwing the baby out with the bath-water has been going on since well before Marx ever came along. It's a part of the sloppy fallout from certain aspects of both the Renaissance and the Enlightenment.

Not everything in the Bible aligns with "lived reality," nor does it even address a lot of what now is encountered in today's "lived reality."

And your notion as to "universal truths and facts" are always open to interpretation, and this is one small reason why I parse out the idea of "Reality" from "truth claims" about that Reality.
You mean, the colonizers brought truths about germ warfare to the Americas when they gave blankets to the native peoples?

Still, I get what you're saying. Somewhere in the wash is the historical Jesus of Nazareth, waiting to be properly represented to those who either have never heard of him or have been misinformed about Him.
Yes. Enlightenment 'freedom' has been a double-edged sword, hasn't it?
The problem with this description is that Modern Western Culture is the outcome of all that has cumulatively transpired in plural conflicts and encounters between various people groups and nations from about 1500 to about 1900, roughly speaking. The "true Gospel message"---whatever that truly is----- was awash in a cacophony of confusion during that time. We're lucky to still have Christianity with us today, and of course, you and I can surmise through various allusions to biblical writings as to why it still is among us today.
Thats an interesting way to put it. Perhaps that is done with the spirit of Christ. If Christ is Truth then those truths must be known, we can known them and use them to live by. But those same truths are becoming more hated in the west.

True.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,814
11,611
Space Mountain!
✟1,371,017.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The principle difference being rules about sexual behavior, some of which secular morality does not treat of as moral issues at all.

True. Different ideologies hold different [sets] of ideas and truth claims about those ideas. What we ultimately decide to do with it all depends on whether Jesus is the Christ or not. If He isn't, we can all go back to our personal business. If He is...................................................well then, we all have a few things to think about and maybe reconsider before we die.

At the end of the day though, analytically speaking, what most of us want is to simply be treated as fellow human beings, without all of the hullabaloo of oppressive measures, even if and when our issues of "socializing" are known to be fairly complicated.
 
Upvote 0

BCP1928

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2024
8,876
4,482
82
Goldsboro NC
✟265,176.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Of course the real question facing us today is not whether Christians must obey Christian moral rules, but whether the non-Christian citizens of a secular state must be made to obey them.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,814
11,611
Space Mountain!
✟1,371,017.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Of course the real question facing us today is not whether Christians must obey Christian moral rules, but whether the non-Christian citizens of a secular state must be made to obey them.

True, but that's not the only "real question" facing us today.
 
Upvote 0

dlamberth

Senior Contributor
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
20,157
3,177
Oregon
✟938,112.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Politics
US-Others
Of course the real question facing us today is not whether Christians must obey Christian moral rules, but whether the non-Christian citizens of a secular state must be made to obey them.
It's more than Christian moral rules, with that comes the must worship of the Christian God.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Raised by bees
Mar 11, 2017
22,014
16,567
55
USA
✟417,342.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
But what is secular. I don't think any culture really becomes religious free in some form or another. People say Woke is the new religion and in many ways it has many of the hallmarks.

Secular is just an adjective applied to things that don't have to do with religion. It is not a rejection of religion elsewhere.

Physics is secular -- nothing to do with religion.
Math is secular -- nothing to do with religion.
Accounting is secular -- nothing to do with religion.
Government is secular -- nothing to do with religion.
Car repair is secular -- nothing to do with religion.

Some things come in secular and religious flavors, like music, art, literature, architecture.

Churches and mosques are religious architecture.
Shopping malls and stadiums are secular architecture.
Gospel is religious music.
Rock is secular music.
Christian rock is bad music.

Not so hard to understand.
 
Upvote 0

Reasonably Sane

With age comes wisdom, when it doesn't come alone.
Oct 27, 2023
1,102
494
69
Kentucky
✟39,610.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
To?! The only think missing is the end part. We're basically where Rome was in utter decadence just before it was fully rotted from within and easily sacked.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Raised by bees
Mar 11, 2017
22,014
16,567
55
USA
✟417,342.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Sort of, but not only from sexual issues alone.

The "sexual issues" are largely a distraction used to gain control by generating outrage. The real target is to desecularize our schools and government and universities and laws and all other aspects of society. Once they have that control, then imposing their will on the "sexual issues".
 
Reactions: john23237
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,814
11,611
Space Mountain!
✟1,371,017.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

True, but the history of institutions in the U.S., whether they are now secular or not, has.....................(dare I say it)............................swung both ways.

And what's more, it's not too much to say that if it were possible, each polarized faction of both the Cons and the Libs would, if able, gain control over all else. It's communistic aspirations VS. Theonomist "Christian" dominionists, and the rest of the 90% of us are stuck in between them as they continue to politically jockey for position. I hope that neither of them ever gets it.

I mean, hell, I had an atheistic professor who firmly advocated outside and above the lines of the class curriculum for Che. This kind of propagandic teaching doesn't only happen on the Right side of things in churches, but also on the Left.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Raised by bees
Mar 11, 2017
22,014
16,567
55
USA
✟417,342.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
True, but the history of institutions in the U.S., whether they are now secular or not, has.....................(dare I say it)............................swung both ways.

The dominionists and other theocratic minded are way more than 10%. Virtually no one is "communistic".
I mean, hell, I had an atheistic professor who firmly advocated outside and above the lines of the class curriculum for Che. This kind of propagandic teaching doesn't only happen on the Right side of things in churches, but also on the Left.
I have no idea why you'd call that professor "atheistic". Che would be a topic in a history or perhaps economic class. Religion has nothing to do with the teaching those topics, so the professor's religious leanings seem irrelevant.
 
Reactions: BCP1928
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,814
11,611
Space Mountain!
✟1,371,017.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The dominionists and other theocratic minded are way more than 10%. Virtually no one is "communistic".
Maybe.
I have no idea why you'd call that professor "atheistic". Che would be a topic in a history or perhaps economic class. Religion has nothing to do with the teaching those topics, so the professor's religious leanings seem irrelevant.
I called her "atheistic" because she made it clear in the course of the class that not only was she an ex-christian, she was atheistic and leaned toward strong socialism and communism. So, it is she who made her personal philosophy a part of the curriculum. So, they are relevant here.

Have you by chance taken any Social Science classes within the last 20 years, Hans?
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Raised by bees
Mar 11, 2017
22,014
16,567
55
USA
✟417,342.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
What kind of class were you taking that Che was relevant and so was religious opinions?
Have you by chance taken any Social Science classes within the last 20 years, Hans?
In the last 30 years? No. I have only taught classes in that period.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,814
11,611
Space Mountain!
✟1,371,017.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What kind of class were you taking that Che was relevant and so was religious opinions?
The sort of class that is frequently available and represented in a wide array of Universities today, Hans. Y'know, "Woke" classes. Of course, back then, they were simply called "multi-cultural classes."
In the last 30 years? No. I have only taught classes in that period.

No, I said within the last 20 years, or even within the last 10. Have you not been keeping up with all of the "Wokism" that is present at a number of public universities?
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,814
11,611
Space Mountain!
✟1,371,017.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The dominionists and other theocratic minded are way more than 10%. Virtually no one is "communistic".

Sure, not many are full fledged communists, but there are a number who are leaning toward socialism.


And of course, we can find finer details on this demographic spread.
 
Upvote 0