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durangodawood

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I agree with Ken that it is decided on by each individual, but you have to remember what this means in regard to atheists. It means they're making up something baseless out of thin air, the same thing they often accuse religious folks of doing.
Making up notions of meaning is no problem.

But declaring that made up notions of meaning are some real feature of the universe, and that my culture's notion is the really real one to which other cultures must accede, thats where the problem is.

Besides, I think both religious and atheistic notions of meaning have value based on their correspondence to real feature of being human. And so they are not entirely made up, though the religious content may be cloaked in a mythical form.
 
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Chesterton

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Making up notions of meaning is no problem.

You mean "no problem" as in "it's easy" or what?
But declaring that made up notions of meaning are some real feature of the universe, and that my culture's notion is the really real one to which other cultures must accede, thats where the problem is.

You put two ideas in one sentence, then said "that's the problem". Are they both problems, or which one is the problem, and why?
Besides, I think both religious and atheistic notions of meaning have value based on their correspondence to real feature of being human. And so they are not entirely made up, though the religious content may be cloaked in a mythical form.

Absent any external truth, there is no "real feature of being human" apart from the physics and chemistry of which we're made, and those things don't care about meaning.
 
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durangodawood

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1. Good catch!.... because that was rather offhand of me. I mean its a fine strategy for life to develop myths of meaning that suit the facts of life on earth for human beings.

2. In a pluralistic world its a problem for any culture to decide its myths alone are 'real' and that all other cultures need to abandon theirs, and get on board with ours.

3. No real features of being human? Seriously? Absent a divine order we are merely bags of chemicals moving according to laws of physics? I almost cant believe that anyones concept of human life can be so poverty stricken.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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For me if there is ethics then there is meaning, because we ought to choose what is good, and this "the good" ought to be our purpose or that which we strive towards. Because it is preferable.

For me its "rational attraction to being" which is actually a necessary part of our lives as ethical agents.

We strive to act on best information to our interest, which is actaully our mode of staying "coupled" to the world arond us. Even if we are altruists, our interests are seen as avalable in serving others.

Even if were subjectivists, or hindus, or anarchists etc etc etc, then thats our rationality manifest.

So just as life is "survival of the fittest" and this is a bolological law, yet we have endless forms most beautiful, ethics and life-meaning share a form (a priori essence, or "eidos" in posh terms) too.

Even when we sleep, theres an implicit rationality in that too. So, we have the meaning of life, know it or not, simply because we are alive.

This doesnt make all paths equal though, some are "fitter" existentially in that they answer to our psychological needs, and adaptive needs, more appropriately and intelligently than others.

Ideally our psychological needs, and adaptive needs, conjoined and we enjoy life in a rational manner. Which works for us...


Its not laissez faire, by any means...

.... nature abhors a vaccuum.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Are you sure that someone who finds meaning , say - (hope this aint a straw man) - in geting drunk, leaving the chip pan on, and smoking in bed ... has a meaning of life... because it makkes him happy and fulfilled?

I would agree that he has meaing (Id say his "rational attraction to being" in manifest whilst he lives and breathes, basically just because he lives and breathes) but it will likely be suboptimal (he'll soon be distressed at being burnt) rather than actually mostly irrational in that he enjoys the cause of self destruction.

And his personal meaning will be a short lived "rational attraction to being" unless the neighbour calls the fire brigade in time.
 
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Received

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Yes, I can agree with this. I would say, as you seem to reveal and imply, that it's not always a matter of "meaning or no meaning" (although that's clearly the case, and people get into despair when they have no meaning), but of different qualities of meaning, which correspond with different "depths" of happiness -- some meanings correspond with shallow happiness, others with deep happiness, and a whole continuum is open.
 
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Chesterton

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1. Good catch!.... because that was rather offhand of me. I mean its a fine strategy for life to develop myths of meaning that suit the facts of life on earth for human beings.
I just disagree with the notion that that kind of thing is actually "meaning". Like with a traiffic light - a round, red light hanging in the air over a street has no actual meaning, but we assign it the meaning "stop until it changes color" because that suits the facts of life on earth. Yes, it makes life better, safer, happier, but the meaning is abitrary and has no relation to reality.
2. In a pluralistic world its a problem for any culture to decide its myths alone are 'real' and that all other cultures need to abandon theirs, and get on board with ours.
Yeah that's a problem, especially if the myths are wrong.
3. No real features of being human? Seriously? Absent a divine order we are merely bags of chemicals moving according to laws of physics? I almost cant believe that anyones concept of human life can be so poverty stricken.
Yes, Bags-O-Chemicals, soon to be worm food.
 
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durangodawood

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....Yes, Bags-O-Chemicals, soon to be worm food.
That seems rather ignorant of the amazing systems that make up the human body.
I mean, I've held a "bag of chemicals", and it couldnt really do anything.
 
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Chesterton

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That seems rather ignorant of the amazing systems that make up the human body.

How are they amazing?
I mean, I've held a "bag of chemicals", and it couldnt really do anything.

Sorry to hear that. I could introduce you to my guy...
 
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durangodawood

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How are they amazing?
Clearly you dont understand the first thing about human biology if you thing the body is comparable to a bag of stuff or a sack of sand or whatever.

I dont think Im going to start from square one with you. No offense.
 
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david rodriguez

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i've got a question for you then.. What is the purpose of your post to begin with? Did you have a purpose to post here? What were you thinking of receiving back to yourself by posting? People are driven by something to be heard, etc... yes? no? If there is a drive within the human soul to go as far as to buy a computer, find a website, fill in the registration, validate your email, etc... and then post, what was driving you to do all that?
 
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david rodriguez

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Another question... what about those people whose drive is to do evil? what would you say about their own free will to choose to follow their own pleasures of their own evils? Would it go against your safety or well being if you knew that an 'evil' person was living in your neighborhood? What constitutes 'evil?' What would you define evil as for your own self with your own definition? and how would you react if the society you were living in said that the evil person had all the rights to do exactly as he/she wanted to at any time he/she wanted to.... etc... full rights to let him/her be what they want to be for themselves and not for anybody else. Would you say that the society would be justifying evil then?
 
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FredVB

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There is meaning with there being purpose behind things we do, and indeed ethics that are understood are connected to that. We might find such things from what we just come up with, from those who inspire us, or from certain interests that we have, and those will hold value too much of the time. But why should we do anything like this, without there being the reality behind that, real purpose that is already there for us, with our being here, apart and distinct from what we think for coming up with, or have passed to us, for it?
 
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