Is Masturbation a sin?

The history of word definitions that we Christians have used over the centuries for sexual sins is an interesting study.

Strong does seem to have the meanings that were in use in his day. And does create a nice contrast to our translations today that use sexual immorality.
Fornication comes down to us thru the KJV of the Bible. If we look at the Oxford Dictionary of 1600 we find the definition of fornication deals is about prostitution.
The meaning of fornication was changing in the Elizabethan Age to our current premarital sex.

So I like Strong's for all other words, but for words that have a sexual meaning I find it best to do a lot more digging to be sure what the Greek meant when the NT was written.

J. Bleize said:

I'm not saying it's a sin, but it seems like something extremely fruitless

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Unless you consider relief from a very strong sex drive so you can concentrate on other things for a day or 2 to be "fruitless."

DaveW-Ohev said:

Unless you consider relief from a very strong sex drive so you can concentrate on other things for a day or 2 to be "fruitless."

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That's why it's quite handy to have the fruit of the spirit called "self-discipline / self-control". Some people can take Chinese water torture for 4 days or sleep on broken glass so I think it's entirely possible (and even easy) to stop masturbating through help of the Holy Spirit and do more productive things instead. If something itches, why scratch if you can make the itch go away?

dayhiker said:

I've answered the question about Jesus standing by side already today. fruitless ... is watching the sun set fruitless?

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Sorry, I just read your comment. I mean no offence to you as person when I say that masturbation is fruitless/bad, I only dislike it because I am someone who's life is purely based on efficiency and progress - both on this plane of reality and my spiritual relationship with God, so anything that isn't actively building towards improvement or acquiring knowledge or skill to be used on a physical and spiritual level in service of God is a waste of time to me. Therefore I am shocked that it is considered "pleasure" at all to someone. To me it is equal in pleasure to coughing or being burnt by the sun. It's a gross, physical, biological simulation of sex with no gains whatsoever to the good of God. Sexual relations with a person that you love is different, which is probably why God mentions it in the Bible and endorses it. (Does he? Can't remember. My mind feels so stretched.) Watching the sun set isn't fruitless, for when accompanied by thoughts/prayer/meditation/useful breathing methods/philosophical ideas etc. it is a productive and stimulative exercise. Looking at anything is less fruitless than masturbation, even the back of a power tool manual written in a foreign language. Masturbation is the one thing that I find I cannot use to actively better myself intellectually, spiritually, physically or in any other way really, for it dulls your thoughts and numbs your spiritual senses. However, I am not saying that you should stop doing it, do whatever you wish to do and what you feel is the thing that God wants you to do to execute his plan for you in the best possible way. I am simply saying that if I were you I'd rather read a book or go jogging (or look at the sunset)

J. Bleize said:

That's why it's quite handy to have the fruit of the spirit called "self-discipline / self-control". Some people can take Chinese water torture for 4 days or sleep on broken glass so I think it's entirely possible (and even easy) to stop masturbating through help of the Holy Spirit and do more productive things instead. If something itches, why scratch if you can make the itch go away?

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I find this entire post VERY disturbing. God does not take away or even diminish those gifts he gives us. That includes the sex drive. I find it interesting in 1 Cor 7 when Paul talks about burning with sexual desire he NEVER says get more self-control; rather he says to get married. There is no mention in scripture anywhere of diminishing the sex drive. That itch does not go away, at least not from any godly source.

Can some find a way to do that thru fleshly effort? Or drugs? Yes. But that is NOT a godly method and will give more problems in the long run than it "solves."

DaveW-Ohev said:

I find this entire post VERY disturbing. God does not take away or even diminish those gifts he gives us. That includes the sex drive. I find it interesting in 1 Cor 7 when Paul talks about burning with sexual desire he NEVER says get more self-control; rather he says to get married. There is no mention in scripture anywhere of diminishing the sex drive. That itch does not go away, at least not from any godly source.

Can some find a way to do that thru fleshly effort? Or drugs? Yes. But that is NOT a godly method and will give more problems in the long run than it "solves."

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I didn't know my post was disturbing. Most people find masturbation disturbing too though so I can probably be forgiven for being disturbing.
I have to admit that I am not the best at remembering useful bits of Scripture for use at a moment's notice, with all of the other billions of things that I have to remember and then some, so could you please find me a verse that says that sex drive is a gift from God? Just want to make sure of that.
I am not convinced by your statement that God doesn't "take away" things like sex drive if you want him to. But I think the "want him to" part is important. God could enter the hearts of atheists, but they don't want him to, so he does not, same thing. And Paul does not say "have more self-control" because human self-control is flawed. The self-control that the Holy Spirit grants is divine. And I find it strange that if masturbation is such a natural and non-sinful thing, I do not feel any desire to do it, but I, for example, sometimes feel the urge to kick someone in the face for no reason. Is sex drive more intense in some people than the kick-someone-drive? Am I simply an exception? Are there any exceptions when it comes to God?

J. Bleize said:

find me a verse that says that sex drive is a gift from God?

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That would be at creation when God brought female Adam to male Adam (not named eve yet). Reiterated all over the Song of Solomon.

J. Bleize said:

I am not convinced by your statement that God doesn't "take away" things like sex drive if you want him to.

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Rom 11.29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

J. Bleize said:

Is sex drive more intense in some people than the kick-someone-drive?

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Yes. Your "kick someone" urge is based on emotional frustration. Sex drive intensity is based on a variety of factors, the biggest one being the amount of free testosterone in the blood. While women can control that (to a certain degree) most men cannot. Concentrations seem to follow a standard "bell curve" distribution. Most statistics on men in their teens and twenties who touch say that about 95% of those men do, at least occasionally. That comes in at just about 2 standard deviations above mean. That means that those men have very low testosterone and are fine with having no sexual release. But there are an equal number of men at the other end who would be in a very bad place without a frequent sexual release. Most fall in the middle where they experience a buildup of T until they have to release and then they are fine for a while.

DaveW-Ohev said:

That would be at creation when God brought female Adam to male Adam (not named eve yet). Reiterated all over the Song of Solomon.

Rom 11.29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Yes. Your "kick someone" urge is based on emotional frustration. Sex drive intensity is based on a variety of factors, the biggest one being the amount of free testosterone in the blood. While women can control that (to a certain degree) most men cannot. Concentrations seem to follow a standard "bell curve" distribution. Most statistics on men in their teens and twenties who touch say that about 95% of those men do, at least occasionally. That comes in at just about 2 standard deviations above mean. That means that those men have very low testosterone and are fine with having no sexual release. But there are an equal number of men at the other end who would be in a very bad place without a frequent sexual release. Most fall in the middle where they experience a buildup of T until they have to release and then they are fine for a while.

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But what God intended for Adam and Eve wasn't masturbation... Sex between a man and a woman is useful, life-bringing or otherwise relationship-strengthening and trust-building. The female leaves herself to the mercy of the male and he responds by being gentle. Something like that.
But when testosterone builds up, can't it be released by aggression? (Punching a bag very violently / doing martial arts / playing a sport /) Or by working out? Most body builders or street fighters say that they feel a significant weakening in their strength when they've engaged in sexual activities some time before being active in the gym / a fight.
Plus I do not know much about biology but doesn't nocturnal emission also give a "release"? And it happens after something like 10 days? Can't you wait ten days and then gradually stop masturbating permanently?

J. Bleize said:

I do not know much about biology but doesn't nocturnal emission also give a "release"?

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Yes it does - but only around 40% of men ever experience that. Most of us have the dream, but when it comes to the "wet" part we wake up on the edge. Either rub it to finish (touch) or be in a very bad place for a long time.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Yes it does - but only around 40% of men ever experience that. Most of us have the dream, but when it comes to the "wet" part we wake up on the edge. Either rub it to finish (touch) or be in a very bad place for a long time.

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Doesn't it disgust you somewhat? Friends of mine that admit to masturbating say that they are thoroughly disgusted with themselves afterwards.
What is this "very bad place"? Are you sure it isn't "good"? Why is "bad" not pleasureable? Why can't you enjoy pain? Why does a cure hurt you? Why is this bad place "bad" if you still have God? How long is a "long time"? A year? Why does there have to be a bad time?
I found God through the darkest time of my life - a depression that nearly destroyed my sanity and almost made me commit suicide. I was led to him through that and I still am through all bad experiences because God makes sense of it all. There is a verse somewhere about sadness coming from God being a good sadness if it leads you to him. Maybe this bad place you are talking about is part of that? I know that I am very rarely happy when I think of God, I am actually quite "grey" emotionally, but I long for his presence and not the presence of happiness. God isn't all about pleasure. In my experience very little about pleasure. In my opinion not about pleasure at all, especially not about emotional or physical pleasure. But that is if you are pursuing a more complex relationship with him, and that is dangerous because humans are spiritually susceptible to many dark influences. Simplicity is how we are / stay saved. In simplicity I suppose that masturbation isn't that wrong. But I still don't like it. At least it isn't smoking!

All I can say is; wow!

bhsmte said:

All I can say is; wow!

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What is your motivation for saying "wow!"?

DaveW-Ohev said:

I find this entire post VERY disturbing. God does not take away or even diminish those gifts he gives us. That includes the sex drive. I find it interesting in 1 Cor 7 when Paul talks about burning with sexual desire he NEVER says get more self-control; rather he says to get married. There is no mention in scripture anywhere of diminishing the sex drive. That itch does not go away, at least not from any godly source.

Can some find a way to do that thru fleshly effort? Or drugs? Yes. But that is NOT a godly method and will give more problems in the long run than it "solves."

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Functionally speaking, if G-d had not given men the sex drive they have, then marriage as G-d intends it would largely not exist.

Men in general are not very good listeners and they are even worse ( in general) at communication. In general most men prefer the company of other men for social interaction. Most men are rarely friends with other women. If they are it is usually because the man has a desire for a deeper relationship with the women than being "just friends"

Obviously there are exceptions to the above but in general, what I stated is true. It is the sex drive that propels a man towards a woman. Men have to 'work' at their marriage relationship as it does not come naturally for most men. Think about it... do you have to "work" at your relationship with your best buddy?

I haven't really had time to meditate on this but from its initial read, I found it VERY compelling

http://www.rmsbibleengineering.com/Page2/MarriageDivorce/Page1_JesusDivorce.html

J. Bleize said:

What is your motivation for saying "wow!"?

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The statements some people make.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Why do we artificially push back the age of marriage until years (decades even) after puberty?

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Urges may start at a young age but the human body is not yet fully matured. For example, all pregnancies before the age of 18 are considered high-risk pregnancies. The chances of medical complications are higher for a girl of 13 versus a woman of 23. That is not to say that nature does not allow a young person to get pregnant...but it can be very problematic.

Also it takes years to educate a person. A 13 year old is not ready for the World in the year 2015. So much to learn in order to have a job/career.

BukiRob said:

Functionally speaking, if G-d had not given men the sex drive they have, then marriage as G-d intends it would largely not exist.

Men in general are not very good listeners and they are even worse ( in general) at communication. In general most men prefer the company of other men for social interaction. Most men are rarely friends with other women. If they are it is usually because the man has a desire for a deeper relationship with the women than being "just friends"

Obviously there are exceptions to the above but in general, what I stated is true. It is the sex drive that propels a man towards a woman. Men have to 'work' at their marriage relationship as it does not come naturally for most men. Think about it... do you have to "work" at your relationship with your best buddy?

I haven't really had time to meditate on this but from its initial read, I found it VERY compelling

http://www.rmsbibleengineering.com/Page2/MarriageDivorce/Page1_JesusDivorce.html

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What you are suggesting is that men are not capable of feeling non-sexual attraction or love towards a woman. I refuse to accept that as true, given the lack of truth in general, as well as the lack of evidence and the obvious fact that this is a sexist remark made from personal experience. In my experience, all women simply want to use men as disposable diaries to discuss their "deep feelings" that are actually just unintelligent, emotional ranting about absolutely nothing at all, and then use them to gain sexual pleasure or emotional pleasure. Does my personal experience make this the truth?

J. Bleize said:

What you are suggesting is that men are not capable of feeling non-sexual attraction or love towards a woman. I refuse to accept that as true, given the lack of truth in general, as well as the lack of evidence and the obvious fact that this is a sexist remark made from personal experience. In my experience, all women simply want to use men as disposable diaries to discuss their "deep feelings" that are actually just unintelligent, emotional ranting about absolutely nothing at all, and then use them to gain sexual pleasure or emotional pleasure. Does my personal experience make this the truth?

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You apparently have serious issues with reading comprehension. Where did I say ANY of what you suggest?

No where did I say that men are incapable of anything that you falsely and incorrectly accuse me of having said.

I never, ever even suggested any such thing regarding about love towards a wife. Where on EARTH did you come to such an absurdly wrong minded opinion?

BukiRob said:

Where on EARTH did you come to such an absurdly wrong minded opinion?

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By reading what you said.

BukiRob said:

You apparently have serious issues with reading comprehension.

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How does one comprehend something incorrectly if it is unspecific and you meant something specific by it?

BukiRob said:

Functionally speaking, if G-d had not given men the sex drive they have, then marriage as G-d intends it would largely not exist.

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An example of being unspecific. This can be interpreted in many, many ways. Basically you are saying that marriages exist through male sex drive, since without this they largely wouldn't exist? I doubt if G-d's idea of a marriage is a man and a woman having sexual intercourse all the time because the man wants to. I think he sees that as having the purpose of creating children and strengthening a bond between man and woman, which has nothing to do with sex drive. All marriages can exist functionally without sex drive as G-d intends for them to! If a man loves a woman and they are married, even though he has no sex drive whatsoever, they will have sex to have children, if they wish, or they will have sex out of love / passion, not because of sex drive. Rapists rape because of sex drive, men don't love their wives because of it.

QUOTE="BukiRob, post: 68297189, member: 320909"]It is the sex drive that propels a man towards a woman.[/QUOTE]

Some men are propelled towards men by the sex drive that God gave them. Some men are propelled towards animals. So what exactly are you trying to say? It's LOVE that propels men towards women. Not the idea that a relationship might lead to sex! How do you explain this comment?

J. Bleize said:

By reading what you said.



How does one comprehend something incorrectly if it is unspecific and you meant something specific by it?



An example of being unspecific. This can be interpreted in many, many ways. Basically you are saying that marriages exist through male sex drive, since without this they largely wouldn't exist? I doubt if G-d's idea of a marriage is a man and a woman having sexual intercourse all the time because the man wants to. I think he sees that as having the purpose of creating children and strengthening a bond between man and woman, which has nothing to do with sex drive. All marriages can exist functionally without sex drive as G-d intends for them to! If a man loves a woman and they are married, even though he has no sex drive whatsoever, they will have sex to have children, if they wish, or they will have sex out of love / passion, not because of sex drive. Rapists rape because of sex drive, men don't love their wives because of it.

QUOTE="BukiRob, post: 68297189, member: 320909"]It is the sex drive that propels a man towards a woman.

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Some men are propelled towards men by the sex drive that God gave them. Some men are propelled towards animals. So what exactly are you trying to say? It's LOVE that propels men towards women. Not the idea that a relationship might lead to sex! How do you explain this comment?[/QUOTE]


LOL You are making some extraneous leaps and conclusions. Some of which are intertwined with views you hold that are functionally wrong.

First off you are wildly incorrect on your beliefs concerning Rape. Rape is about power and not sex. Very few rapes, as in exceedingly rare, occur because of sexual desire.

https://well.wvu.edu/articles/rape_myths_and_facts

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html

http://sapac.umich.edu/article/52

Feel free to check any of these 3 links to university articles concerning the myths associated with rape. You just articulated the #1 myth concerning rape.

Single men do not pursue women for friendship. They pursue them almost exclusively for romantic interest. So yes, I am saying that if men did not have the kind of sex drive they have, many perhaps even most would remain single. Unlike you, I am and have been married for several years. As a single man you know very little about women particularly so when it comes to being an a marital relationship with one.

Single men do not actively pursue women for friendship and activities. They do so with their buddies. It doesn't mean they are incapable for goodness sake it means that men don't need what a woman needs out of a relationship as what a woman needs does not come naturally for a man to give. That is why men have to really WORK at their marriages. Its why scripture tells a man to LOVE his wife and for his WIFE to submit herself to her husband.

This means giving your wife the things she needs. To be cherished, honored, protected and be in an environment where she is safe emotionally, financially and spiritually. These things meet her emotional needs.

Men need to be respected. If a man is not respected by his wife it sews seeds of bitterness and he natural will feel as though his wife does not love him.


2 men can be in the same room, be friends and not say more than 15 words to each other over the span of a couple of hours and neither feels like "something is wrong"

So yeah, I am saying that if all men had a much lower sex drive many if not perhaps even most would not marry and that is contrary to G-d plan.

Finally you are absolutely WRONG about LOVE propelling men towards women. What you call love is NOT love. Love is an ACT OF THE WILL. What you are calling LOVE is actually at best physical attraction and probably more accurately lust

So, your main statement which you seem so confusingly (and disturbingly) passionate about is: "Men must have sex drive so that they will feel attracted to women, because they cannot be emotionally attracted to women simply because they are women. The majority of men also aren't friends with women (as if God has ever cared about majorities) and now for this incredibly contradictory point: Because men have testosterone, they are propelled towards women, ignoring the vast amounts that aren't because they don't matter. (Note: Due to the men-women thing, you should have specified and said that a man can't feel the love that he feels for one special woman towards all women, if that's what you were trying to say, but he can, so...)
I really don't see where you are going with this or what you are trying to say. Plus I do not think that you are including God in any of this except as the maker of testosterone.
How is your opinion that if men had lower sex drives they would stay single, in any possible way a problem to God? If men had lower sex drives there would be *less masturbation
*less weird fetishes
*less pornography
*less prostitutes
Plus there would be more
*brain cells?
*emotional bonding between men and women
*friendship between men and women
*peace
*marriages?
With less testosterone (on a very small level, just enough to lower sex drive to such a level that men aren't attracted to any gender purely based on gender) men would be friends with women, and they would be more emotionally involved with women, and eventually love (a) woman whom they would most likely marry more successfully than they would have if they were only attracted to women because of testosterone.
Has there not been a drastic increase in natural testosterone levels in average males in modern times? I don't marriages are becoming more successful or loving.
Anyway, you can live on in your personal world of sex drive attraction and testosterone propelling, but I will never accept your views as my own. Thank you for sharing them, though.