Is Mary Dead? Or Alive?

[Theophorus]

Christ told the thief, this day you will be with me in paradise. He also said, Let the dead bury the dead. The living are in the church. The living are in Christ, and Christ in them. They are one as the He and the Father are one. The Saints in heaven liv in Christ, we here are to do the same. This is all biblical doctrine. The thing we are told to attain is the Kingdom of God.

To say the Saints are dead is a terrible statement.

 

[GraceInHim]

Mary has physically died and gone to heaven like every other Christian. She is alive there with all others who've gone before us. No biblical evidence that we should be attempting to communicate or pray to her or anyone else who's gone on.




He would if they were no longer in the area, dead, or if they didn't truly believe in Him. She did have other sons because the Bible mentions Jesus' brothers.

how could they been dead? Jesus was older and died at 33... also the name which appears to be his brother in the Bible is James, who had the Church in Jerusalem.. why would he not take her? We fall into this thing of search the scriptures... the law was that the older son would take care of the older parent.. Jesus spoke about this and made a point that it was wrong what the Jews were doing back in this time to thier Parents.. he would of been breaking his own Law handed down to the Jews from years ago.. and there is no where stated that John took Mary with a bunch of kids... They had to be step, or cousins.. no bloodline.. Look what happned with Cain and Able... God would not want this again... just my 2 cents... I agree with you first sentence

 

[jckstraw72]

He would if they were no longer in the area, dead, or if they didn't truly believe in Him

except that James the "brother" of Jesus was alive and well in Jerusalem and faithfully following Christ, as shown with his leadership position at the Council in Jerusalem.

Luke 20:36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

ok, now Im going to attempt my own little thingy here--I did not get this from any Orthodox source, so dont blame them. Satan knows our weaknesses and how to tempt us, and Satan is a fallen angel, therefore, would not angels know about us, bc God allows them to? And if the saints are equals to the angels....could not they be aware of us and intercede on our behalves? God uses other beings to do His work sometimes, so why not those souls of righteous men made perfect that we have come to at the Holy Mt.?(Hebrews 12)

 

[jckstraw72]

Also, didnt Christ say something like "you will not die until you see the kingdom come", or something like that? So anyhoo, the kingdom is here already within us and in the liturgical life of the Church.

 

[moses916]

Even the jews believe Saints are in heaven and that they can hear. When Jesus said "Eli Eli Lema Sabactani?" The jews said amongst themselves, 'is he praying to the Prophet Elijah?' This whole Saints can't hear thing is too reformationy for me.

 

[OnTheWay]

Would be interpretation? Excuse me.

Read Rev. 20:10-15.

IT makes it VERY clear that death, the sea, and Hades give up their souls to be judged before God BEFORE they go to the Lake of Fire (Hell) or Heaven. Read Rev. 20:15 closely.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And whoever was NOT found in the book went to hell. That means there was some whose names WERE found also. There's no point for them to be looking through the Book of Life if all in Hades was guilty.

Revelation makes it clear NO ONE is in the Lake of Fire yet. Not untill the Great White Throne judgment.

The idea that a book which is a description of a vision in the form of a dream is very clear about anything is absurd.

 

[OnTheWay]

As for her ability to hear and deal with all the prayers made to her. You would have to believe in a process where people become more than people and are given supernatural god-like powers wouldn't you.
Scripture doesn't really give us anything indicating such occurs, you have to accept the traditions of the Orthodox or Catholic churches.

Yeah, because when Moses parted the Red Sea there wasn't anything unusual about that. This would bring up the issue of Theosis, which as been taught by the Church for 2,000 years. But then again most proddies are so divorced from anything remotely similiar to early Christianity it's not suprising you've never heard of it.

So I think you question really comes down to whether you judge those traditions as trustworthy and even if you do, whether you choose to spend your time praying to saints asking for intercession or directly to God.

Don't waste your time asking other people to pray for you. Praying for our fellow Christians has always been a part of Christianity. Living or departed we are one Church

 

[OnTheWay]

You have no biblical support for your position imho. We are NOT to attempt to commincate with the physically dead. There is separation between us presently and that separation is death. It exists regardless of the fact that they are alive in heaven. In my opinion it's just about the same as having a seance and trying to talk to someone's great aunt or something. It's occultic and there's no biblical precedent for us doing so. And our spiritual life isn't shallow, thank you very much. The Father, Christ, and His Spirit are totally fulfilling. We need no other to pray to.

Jesus trampled down death, hence the grave has no victory or sting anymore. Yet here we have Christians offering the devil back his power.

 

[moses916]

If you tell us not to ask the Theotokos or the Saints prayers, it is the same as me telling you not to ask your friends or family members to pray for you. Who is more righteous, the Saints in heaven or men on earth who are still working out their salvation? Sure there is no problem asking our fellow brethen on earth to pray for us, but why not ask those who have already won the good race since they are with Christ this very instant.

 

[Amb1]

Is Mary Dead? Or Alive? Or anyone else.

There are two main views. That some people went to "heaven" or wherever, is one.

The other is that the dead "fall asleep" go to their father's "gray hairs in the grave", etc.. and are await in sheol / hades until the ressurections or Christ returning so that the dead in Christ shall rise.

Which view do you fall into?

A third?

If people are still "fallen asleep", then why pray to Mary if she can't hear?

Do you believe she's alive but doesn't hear anyhow - meaning the act of prayer is a benefit to the one praying by giving recognition?

On the part about praying to Mary, do those people - you maybe - believe it's a "chant" or a "prayer". I've never done it, so I never really thought about that aspect before - the chant possibility. It just came to mind tonight.

The Dead in Christ enter Heaven as souls or spirits. The spirit then manifests into a physical form (not human, like us, but human in appearance), since spirits are not visable.

 

[Beve]

Hi friends! I am just learning about the Bible and Jesus(although I grew up in a Christian home)some of the teachings did not sink in.So here I am,with all you wonderful members,to pick up,where I missed.I do believe Saints are alive,inHeaven and that there are Saints,even on earth,unknown,walking among us. Love and Blessings,Beve

 

[Oblio]

If Mary and the Saints are dead, our faith is in vain

 

[moses916]

Jesus trampled down death, hence the grave has no victory or sting anymore. Yet here we have Christians offering the devil back his power.

Yes it is pretty sad to see many have acknowledged that the Saints are still dead or "asleep" when Christ came and overcame death.

 

[lmnop9876]

The angels in Heaven are the ones that are rejoicing.

it doesn't say this, it says there's "rejoicing in Heaven," and "there is joy in the presence of the angels of God." you're adding to the Bible.

There is many different opinions on WHO these saints are. This is something you cant base doctrine on.

well, even saying the saints are those on earth, who are the elders? they are those who have been "redeemed ... to God by ... [Christ's] blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." these elders are saints who are in Heaven, even if the saints who are mentioned aren't. and they "fall down [worshipping] before the Lamb, with golden bowls full of odours [incense] which are the prayers of saints."

The Martyrs in Rev are those from Tribulation, this is AFTER the rapture not before. So this is useless in this discussion.

I'm not a pre-millenialist, so this is irrelevant to me. the word rapture's not even found in Scripture

In Luke 20:34-37, prove this resurrection has already happened. Maybe it hasn't yet. Maybe it happens when Jesus returns.

Jesus's whole point is that He is not God of the dead, but of the living. He's saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive. their bodies are dead, but their souls are alive.

btw, I'm Protestant, I have the same opinion as the Lutheran guy (was it BigNorsk?), saints may well, and probably do, pray for us, but they can't hear our prayers.

 

[Soon Rev 22:11-12]

...Jesus's whole point is that He is not God of the dead, but of the living. He's saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive. ...

No He does NOT.

Keep this in mind:

"...God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did" Romans 4:17.

See my next post.

​

 

[Oblio]

and this is apparent to most any reader who will merely take the time to study the matter.

No True Scotsman ....

 

[Lynn73]

If Mary and the Saints are dead, our faith is in vain

I think the Bible says that if Christ is not risen, we are are yet in our sins which would mean our faith is in vain. It's His resurrection that's necessary. And because He is risen, Mary and the other saved believers, though physically dead from this world, are alive in heaven.

 

[Theophorus]

If Mary and the Saints are dead, our faith is in vain

This is so true. The idea that has bcome a vague concept in some cirles is the idea of the Church. Christianity does not exist independent of the Church. The idea that we are Christ bearers, or that we are one with Christ as He and the Father are one is often only intlectually affirmed.
The implications of this basic Christian belief are many and profound if really put into practice. One of those implications being the wholeness of the Church. The church with Christ as the corner stone, the first of many bretheren, the way of life, not death.

If Elijah and Enoch were translated into heaven directly based on the hope of Christ's comming, we are the generation of the promise. Having the things that they looked and longed for.

For the Saint, a memeber, or better put, a stone in the temple of the living God, Christ has removed the sting of death, which is sin, thereby transforming death. When we die, we participate in the death of Christ, death without the sting of sin.

May the whole Church of Christ, in heaven and in earth, glorify God.

Indeed, if the Saints are dead, then Christ is not risen, and I am the most miserable of creatures.

 

[Soon Rev 22:11-12]

In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, we have an account of a discussion Jesus had with a group of Sadducees, who scripture explains, did not believe in a resurrection of the dead (Matt 22:23, Mark 12:18, Luke 20:27). They pose a question to Jesus about a widow who marries 7 brothers in sequence as each dies. The Sadducees presume that they have posed an impossible question to Jesus, because they assume that after any alleged resurrection, the woman would be guilty of bigamy by having seven husbands. Jesus answers as follows (emphasis is mine):

Mat 22:28 (KJV) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.



Mark 12:23 (KJV) In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. Luke 20:34 (KJV) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.


​

Note that the topic at hand deals with the Sadducees denial of a resurrection (the power of God to raise the dead) and their lack of knowledge of scripture on the matter.


In each of the above passages, to prove the resurrection, God is quoted when he spoke to Moses (Exodus 3:6) and said "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" and then the comment is made that "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Some Catholics will point to the phrase "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" as proof that people never really die, but rather their "soul" continues to live on after death. However it is clear from the above passages that the issue in question is God's power to raise the dead from the grave in a resurrection, something the Sadducees clearly rejected. The question posed does not address who's wife the woman would be after she is dead, while still in the grave, but rather after her resurrection, because the Sadducees assumed death to be final and irreversible. Catholics who cite these passages to support Catholic teaching on the state of the dead (purgatory etc.) are doing so out of context, and this is apparent to most any reader who will merely take the time to study the matter.

1 Cor 15:52 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1 Cor 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. The dead are in the grave, corrupt, decayed, dust, awaiting their resurrection at the last trumpet. At their resurrection they will put on incorruption, immortality, but until then they rest in the grave.


​

 

[Theophorus]

In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, we have an account of a discussion Jesus had with a group of Sadducees, who scripture explains, did not believe in a resurrection of the dead (Matt 22:23, Mark 12:18, Luke 20:27). They pose a question to Jesus about a widow who marries 7 brothers in sequence as each dies. The Sadducees presume that they have posed an impossible question to Jesus, because they assume that after any alleged resurrection, the woman would be guilty of bigamy by having seven husbands. Jesus answers as follows (emphasis is mine):

Mat 22:28 (KJV) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.



Mark 12:23 (KJV) In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. Luke 20:34 (KJV) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.


​

Note that the topic at hand deals with the Sadducees denial of a resurrection (the power of God to raise the dead) and their lack of knowledge of scripture on the matter.


In each of the above passages, to prove the resurrection, God is quoted when he spoke to Moses (Exodus 3:6) and said "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" and then the comment is made that "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Some Catholics will point to the phrase "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" as proof that people never really die, but rather their "soul" continues to live on after death. However it is clear from the above passages that the issue in question is God's power to raise the dead from the grave in a resurrection, something the Sadducees clearly rejected. The question posed does not address who's wife the woman would be after she is dead, while still in the grave, but rather after her resurrection, because the Sadducees assumed death to be final and irreversible. Catholics who cite these passages to support Catholic teaching on the state of the dead (purgatory etc.) are doing so out of context, and this is apparent to most any reader who will merely take the time to study the matter.

1 Cor 15:52 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1 Cor 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. The dead are in the grave, corrupt, decayed, dust, awaiting their resurrection at the last trumpet. At their resurrection they will put on incorruption, immortality, but until then they rest in the grave.


​

This then gets into different theories on what "soul" really means, and to deny certain scriptures discussing the soul, "soul" has been reduced to merely any living creature. You also have to embrace a doctrine that says Christ did not preach to the souls in hell/hades, but this passage is refering to Noah preaching before the flood or other obscure interpretations. And then there is the soul sleep doctrine...

They are fragile interpretations when compared to the glory of the truth, and all of scripture, including the psalms, the Gospels.

The fact of the matter is iether one is dead, or one is not, and according to Christ's statements himself, this is independent of flesh and blood, dust and bone, as the 1st Adam proved by being dead, yet eating and drinking etc, and the 2nd Adam, Christ proved, by conquering death.