is listing to rock and rap a sin?

[Ainesis]

A racist can be just as saved as a junkie or a judgmental legalist. I'm saved even if I'm dumb. I'm saved even though I'm still hearing impaired. Or poor. Etc.

Then they are no longer a racist; they are made new in Christ.

 

[Lpe04]

There are some people out there who have been raised in hateful environments, maybe without parents, or maybe abused, and have gone through a lot of struggles in their life and are very spiritually afflicted and hateful because of the way they have been raised and becuase they have never been loved before. You are telling me that the blood of Christ is not enough for these people and that God doesn't love them? I can guarantee you, that there is at least someones life you could have lived and you would have turned out to be a racist too, and would have a lot of anger issues, but could come to accept Christ at one time in your life and become saved. We are all products of our own environments. No one can become perfect, this is why Christ died for our sins, ALL OF THEM. Please don't be quick to judge others until you have actually experienced what they have experienced and understand that God and Christ love them the same. I used to also think the same way as you that we have to become perfect, until God showed me a lot of things. Now I am closer to God and to other people than ever before. We have an amazing God who loves us all.

God Bless

 

[holo]

Then they are no longer a racist; they are made new in Christ.

I was saved while I was still an addict. Just as the harshest, unforgiving legalist who condemns me to hell is also saved. I was made new through a process, and still am. God has done a lot of things with me, and, amazingly to some, he taught me a whole lot about love before he did anything with my drug habit. And I was saved even when I hated myself and others. Salvation is about identity, not works. A father doesn't denounce his children because they're not perfect yet.

It's dangerous to look at people and determine their salvation from what you see. You don't see people's hearts. A believing junkie gave me his jacket on a cold night once. You could look at his addiction and see it as proof that he wasn't saved. But he gave me his jacket and thereby proved that he was (not that I needed proof though). No christian has done that to me.
I've been hurt and deceived by christians and unbelievers alike, and vice versa.

I could dig up some post by you that seems unforgiving or spiteful or biblically unsound or whatever, and claim that it proved you're not saved. I can't say the majority of the posters here are unsaved just because they've fallen into the trap of division or haven't realized that God can and will help them love even their enemies.

I thank God he's more forgiving than his representatives.

 

[Ainesis]

There are some people out there who have been raised in hateful environments, maybe without parents, or maybe abused, and have gone through a lot of struggles in their life and are very spiritually afflicted and hateful because of the way they have been raised and becuase they have never been loved before. You are telling me that the blood of Christ is not enough for these people and that God doesn't love them?

Not at all. I am saying that when the world rejects you (as it will) then He will pick you up. When mother or father forsake you, He will take you up.

If God did not love man, He would never have sent His Son to die for us. The question is not does God love man, but does man love God?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Jesus says, IF a man loves Him, then he will keep His words. Do you believe this?

The question is not whether the blood of Jesus is sufficient, but what does the blood of Jesus accomplish?

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Does the blood of Jesus purge our conscience? Are we not sanctified unto obedience and the application of the blood? If the purging, sanctification, or obedience does not occur, is it the blood that has failed?

There is no question that Jesus saves the dirtiest of sinners (myself included). Where you and I differ is on what happens after we turn in faith to Christ. I contend that we are made new...for those who are really saved. It is not possible for people to eneter salvation and stay the same. Do you know anywhere in scripture where it says this is the case?

I can guarantee you, that there is at least someones life you could have lived and you would have turned out to be a racist too, and would have a lot of anger issues,

Absolutely! To a certain degree, I probably fit the bill for what you state above.

but could come to accept Christ at one time in your life and become saved.

Amen!!! Absolutely. But at that time, I lay those things at His feet. Does God really save or "deliver" us from sin or not?

No one can become perfect, this is why Christ died for our sins,

Then God must have been mistaken in the text below. How do you explain this?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Jam 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

 

[Lpe04]

Amen brother!!!!


Holo, you are awesome and a great represantive for God and Christ. I always pray that more people can see God's awesome love and power for us all. It is so funny, it almost seems to me like those who live in "sin" or that others are so quick to judge are actually the ones who understand God and God's love the most. Remember guys, Christ dined with the sinners and heavily rebuked the self righteous Pharisees who were so perfect on the outside. He is a great God, lover of all, I love Him!!!

God Bless

 

[Lpe04]

Ainesis, of course we are called to become better people (and we will receive the blessings from doing so). But to say that someone will not be saved because they don't change a certain thing is not the way that God works. So yes, a person can easily still be a racists and be saved. Should the person strive to change? Of course. Would God want the person to change? Yes God would. Will God hold it against the person if He doesn't? No, because God loves us all and loves to forgive us and sent Christ to die for us. "There is know no more condemnation in Christ Jesus".

God Bless

 

[Ainesis]

I was made new through a process, and still am.

Precisely the point. You are instantaneously made new in the spirit by being given a new heart, and the evidence of that change is made manifest over as you grow in faith. God alone is the author of that change and the finisher of that work.

God has done a lot of things with me, and, amazingly to some, he taught me a whole lot about love before he did anything with my drug habit.

That may be. Perhaps He needed to teach you about love before you could be strong enough to let go of that addiction. Either way, He knows what is best and His Spirit convicts us of sin, moving us progressiely away from what we were to what we are in Him.

The point is that He is transforming you from what you were, which is the point being debated here.

Salvation is about identity, not works. A father doesn't denounce his children because they're not perfect yet.

No, He doesn't. A Father will help His children to grow unto perfection, recognizing that they are not. However, a child that resists the correction of the Father shows himself to be a b_stard and not a son. (Hebrews 12:8) So, our response to His correction as He changes us from what we are has direct impact on our relationship or as you say "identity" with Him.

It's dangerous to look at people and determine their salvation from what you see.

And neither have I done so. However, God's word is clear.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." I Cor. 6:9-11

Can these individuals enter salvation and be changed? Yes! But, nowhere does God say there are saved adulterers, saved liars, saved fornicators, etc. and this si what you would have me to believe. Can you show me where this qualifier is made in Scripture?

I could dig up some post by you that seems unforgiving or spiteful or biblically unsound or whatever, and claim that it proved you're not saved.

Yes, you could. But I am not the standard, am I? It matters not whether you measure up to what I say. It matters that your life (or the life of any believer) measures up to what God says. The assertion that people are saved and stay the same sinners that they were in the world is unBiblical.

I can't say the majority of the posters here are unsaved just because they've fallen into the trap of division or haven't realized that God can and will help them love even their enemies.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

I thank God he's more forgiving than his representatives.

And I thank God that He gives His word as a light unto our paths and a lamp unto our feet.

You say that a Christian who hates his brother is saved but hasn't come to the realization that God can help them to love. That all sounds real good, but God says that those who say they love God and hate their brother are liars.

Whom should I believe? The heartfelt, emotional sentiments of someone who believes the person is a Christian because they profess faith in Christ? Or the all-knowing wisdom of a God who knows the hearts of all men?

God says such is a liar. You say they are saved. If believing God's word over the word of man makes me a legalist in your eyes, then so be it... i see no reason to modify or turn away from His word.

 

[Ainesis]

So yes, a person can easily still be a racists and be saved.

Then you, my friend, have created your own God and your own Gospel, because that is not what God says.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

God says it is impossible for someone to love God and hate their brother. He does not say "Unless they are being worked on to learn how to love." He cals such individuals liars.

One can be a racist and become saved, but they would no longer be a racist if that was the case.


You are free of course to believe otherwise.

 

[Lpe04]

Ainesis,
You keep mentioning 1 Cor 6: 9-11. But the end of that says "but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." We have all been washed and santicfied; racist, drug dealer, etc. all alike are washed and sanctified by the Blood of Christ. This is the greatest of the mystery of God through Christ that was revealed to Paul. You should read Romans, it is a great book on how none of us are justified by works or the law, and that we never could be, and that it is all by believing. I know it's hard for you to comprehend, but a drug dealer who is a believer is made more righteous than the sweet old lady down the road because if she is an unbeliever, because we are saved by faith, and never by works. "Noah believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness."

God Bless

 

[Ainesis]

Ainesis,
You keep mentioning 1 Cor 6: 9-11. But the end of that says "but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Yet, you leave out the very important preceding text to that verse, "And such were some of you." The text confirms that these individuals (who are washed, sanctified, and justified) are no longer what they were as sinners.

Paul does not say, "And such ARE some of you."

Your assertion that they remain as sinners after the washing, sanctification, and justification is in direct conflict to what is said here.

We have all been washed and santicfied; racist, drug dealer, etc. all alike are washed and sanctified by the Blood of Christ.

I cannot attest to that; i am not even sure who you mean by "we all."

I can say this: all who are saved have been washed, sanctified, and justified. Beyond that, I can only examine my ownself to see if I be in the faith.

You should read Romans, it is a great book on how none of us are justified by works or the law,

And no one has asserted otherwise. However, before justification, there is a washing and a sanctification as indicated in the text above. There is no justification apart from that process. Is it all done in God's power alone? Yes, but it is done nonetheless.

You want to define salvation based on a profession of "belief" absent conversion. That is another Gospel. Neither is that supported in Scripture.

You want to define a salvation that allows people to be saved while at the same time hating their brother. That is in opposition to the word of God which says such is not possible; which calls such individuals liars.

What you say may sound or feel nice, but it is in error.

 

[holo]

They're called liars, not unsaved. You can lie all you want and still be saved. Sounds dramatic and extreme, and it is.

 

[Ainesis]

They're called liars, not unsaved. You can lie all you want and still be saved. Sounds dramatic and extreme, and it is.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Perhaps now you are going to tell me that "all liars" does not mean "all" liars? It is also interesting because God does not use the word "all' to stress any of those others who will be condemned, so it is like He is making a point here, just in case any are confused in the matter.


You say you can lie all you want and be saved. God says that ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

You say you can hate your brother and be a Christian. God says if you claim to love Him and hate your brother you are a liar. hence, you don't realy love Him.

On what basis are you defining salvation, because it does not appear to be Scripture.

 

[holo]

No, but I am going to say that "all liars" include you.

 

[holo]

To clarify:
my point isn't that God accept everything. In fact I don't think he accepts anything we could possibly offer him. And we can never ever decide who is saved or not based on whether they tell a lie or smoke a joint or go to church or eve speak in tongues.

 

[Ainesis]

No, but I am going to say that "all liars" include you.

LOL!

Maybe, maybe not. But we know that "all liars" does not refer to those who are saved, because they shall not be condemned.

Either way, it is clear that no liar shall be saved, including those who lie about loving God while hating their brother.

So, your definition of who will be saved is unScriptural.

 

[Ainesis]

To clarify:
my point isn't that God accept everything.

That is good, because He does not.

In fact I don't think he accepts anything we could possibly offer him.

Nope. It is all filthy rags.

And we can never ever decide who is saved or not based on whether they tell a lie or smoke a joint or go to church or eve speak in tongues.

We can never decide who is saved even if the quote Scripture, go to church, sing spiritual songs, etc.

Someone is not "saved" just because they partake in religious activity and someone is not condemned just because they partake in sin.

It is not for man to decide who is saved and who is not; that is God's job.

Nonetheless, God tells us about those who will be condemned, and if we are wise, we will take heed.

 

[Lpe04]

Yet, you leave out the very important preceding text to that verse, "And such were some of you." The text confirms that these individuals (who are washed, sanctified, and justified) are no longer what they were as sinners.

Paul does not say, "And such ARE some of you."

Your assertion that they remain as sinners after the washing, sanctification, and justification is in direct conflict to what is said here.

No, all sins are washed away and forgiven. We are made holy, righteous, and blameless before God because of what Christ did for us, not what we do for ourselves. We are complete in Him. I can't believe that people are still denying the power of the blood of Christ. This is one of satan's ultimate deceptions and lies in Christianity.

Read the book of Job. Job thought that he was making himself righteous until God told him that his unrighteous acts and his righteous acts affect God in no way. All of our righteousness comes from God. To say you can make yourself more righteous is a very prideful thing and is exactly what the Pharisees were doing. This is why Christ preached so harshly to them, because they were so prideful and thought they made everything for themselves.

There an old Christian saying, "If you think you are perfect, try walking on water". If we had to become perfect to be saved, no one would make it except for Christ.

We are no longer those things not because we change (works of the flesh), but because the blood of Christ cleanses us and we are made holy and blameless before God.

God Bless

 

[Ainesis]

No, all sins are washed away and forgiven.

It is not the sin that is washed in that text; it is the people who are washed.

We are made holy, righteous, and blameless before God because of what Christ did for us, not what we do for ourselves.

How are we then to "be perfect" if it is based only on what Christ did? How do we cleanse ourselves to perfect holiness if our holiness is based only on what Christ did?

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

We are complete in Him.

I can't believe that people are still denying the power of the blood of Christ.

Yeah! Me neither!

To say you can make yourself more righteous is a very prideful thing

And who has said that?

If we had to become perfect to be saved, no one would make it except for Christ.

So, explain the following:

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Jam 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

 

[Lpe04]

Well, you are saying then is that Christ's work was not enough. I am sorry, but I will have to kindly point you to the criminal on the cross who was saved by Christ by believing in Christ right before he died (and didn't have to do any "works" or become a "perfect" person). Yes, we are called to become better people, but this has nothing to do with salvation. Jesus Christ's shed blood is enough for anyone. He made the payment in full. This is why the glory goes to God and to Christ and not to ourselves. "Not of works lest any man should boast".

Salvation is a FREE GIFT of grace from God through Jesus Christ our Lord. If you think we have to work for it, then it is no longer a free gift. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift from God is Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Again, "For by grace were ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast". Remeber, you were bought with a price. We were saved by faith, never by works. This is the power of the blood of Christ and the infinite love, mercy and compassion of our great and wonderful God.

God Bless

 

[Ainesis]

Well, you are saying then is that Christ's work was not enough.

No. I am asking you to explain your position in light of the Scriptures provided. If what you say is true, it should withstand the light of Scripture.

How do you explain the presented text?

I will have to kindly point you to the criminal on the cross who was saved by Christ by believing in Christ right before he died (and didn't have to do any "works" or become a "perfect" person).

Perhaps therein lies your confustion. Perfection is not based on works. Perfection is about a conversion of the heart. It is an internal work and it is done completely by God.

Neither is God restricted by time. Conversion can occur in the twinkling of an eye or it can occur over a series of years. It is God's work and His timing. The thief on the cross being saved does not change this.

Yes, we are called to become better people,

We are not called to be better people because we cannot be better people. The most that we can do is get out of God's way so that He can manifest His life and Spirit through us to draw men unto Himself. There is none good but God.

God asks us to place ourselves in a position of being used (it is after all our reasonable service), but the work and any good that results is His alone.

So, how do we become fit for the Master to use? By separating ourselves from that which defiles. Not hording off somewhere afraid to deal with "sinners" but letting God use our lives and testimony to reach others as acknowledgement of where we would be had it not been for Him.

Jesus Christ's shed blood is enough for anyone.

Sure is!

He made the payment in full.

Yes, for all of the sin in the world. That does not mean that sinners don't need to be cleansed after entering salvation. His word in fact says that we do.

Salvation is a FREE GIFT of grace from God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Okay. So, please explain the following:
"And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?" Luke 14:27-28