Is Life Fair?

[freespiritchurch]

Hi,

I'm in the process of starting a church in the Disciples of Christ. Those of you who are familiar with the DoC will know that there are few clergy in it who would fit into the "traditional theology" forum in any way. However, I enthusiastically accept and teach the traditional creeds even though my church doesn't use them. Being in a non-creedal church has stimulated me to think very carefully about what they mean and how I need to present them. I would like to have some conversation intelligent and educated people about some foundational questions within the context of orthodox Christianity. I think this is the place to do that.

So here's the starting point: the more time I spend with Scripture and tradition, the more I'm convinced that orthodox Trinitarian Christianity tells us that the world is not fair. I'm curious if this seems obvious, shocking, or somewhere in between, and interested in thoughts. Do you think that traditional Christianity tells us that life is fair?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Have you read the book of Job lately?

 

[Philip_B]

I think the basic maxim is the rain falls on the righteous and on the unrighteous alike' so there is no expectation that it will be fair. As Forest Gump put it 'It happens'

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hi,

I'm in the process of starting a church in the Disciples of Christ. Those of you who are familiar with the DoC will know that there are few clergy in it who would fit into the "traditional theology" forum in any way. However, I enthusiastically accept and teach the traditional creeds even though my church doesn't use them. Being in a non-creedal church has stimulated me to think very carefully about what they mean and how I need to present them. I would like to have some conversation intelligent and educated people about some foundational questions within the context of orthodox Christianity. I think this is the place to do that.

So here's the starting point: the more time I spend with Scripture and tradition, the more I'm convinced that orthodox Trinitarian Christianity tells us that the world is not fair. I'm curious if this seems obvious, shocking, or somewhere in between, and interested in thoughts. Do you think that traditional Christianity tells us that life is fair?

That's great that you're gearing up to start a DoC church! I wish you the best in that endeavor, with a little prayer thrown in for good measure toward that goal. Although I'm not a part of the DoC, I do frequently associate with one of the sister denominations of the DoC, i.e. the Christian Church (Instrumental). I'm also a philosopher, so some of my own social and philosophical leanings are probably somewhere between and even outside of both the DoC and the Christian Church; so I'd say there are some roots of mutual understanding buried in here between us.

And now to your question: In light of Trinitarian Christianity, is the world fair? Hmmm. I'd have to say both yes and no since, on the one side, we are sinners and we experience various outcomes associated with that spiritual state of being, but on the other side, we have a Devil and an outside world under His influence that we are often buffeted by and through which we have to travel as aliens in search of a home.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Tutorman]

Life most decidedly is never fair.


On edit: I have a disability I was born with, my wife has to take care of me, we do not have a great income. Life is anything but fair.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

While there are unfair incidents along the way life in the developed countries is pretty fair from what I see. A lot of what is deemed unfairness is really just.......life.

 

[PloverWing]

Do you think that traditional Christianity tells us that life is fair?

The crucifixion of Christ is a glaring image to me of the unfairness of life. If prosperity and safety were granted as a reward to the virtuous, Jesus should have had it in abundance, and he did not.

Further, the New Testament speaks extensively about the unexpectedness of who is well-regarded by God and who is not. Blessed are the poor, and woe to you who are rich. The last shall be first. He has regarded the lowliness of his handmaiden.

And there is God's grace, in abundance, given freely, not as a reward. Those who are hired in the last hour of the day get the same wage as those who worked all day.

So, no, as seen in the New Testament, life is not fair.

 

[1 John 4:1]

" Today, some of the best-known prosperity teachers are Creflo Dollar, T. D. Jakes, Guillermo Maldonado, Joel Osteen, and Paula White."
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-you-should-know-about-the-prosperity-gospel/

Seems like a pretty mainstream opinion in Christianity that life is fair (since that is what the prosperity gospel teaches) although I don't agree with it. Here's some videos on the book of Job that you might be interested in and there are some verses that seem to say that life is fair but these are general statements:
e.g. Psalm 92:12

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hi,

I'm in the process of starting a church in the Disciples of Christ. Those of you who are familiar with the DoC will know that there are few clergy in it who would fit into the "traditional theology" forum in any way. However, I enthusiastically accept and teach the traditional creeds even though my church doesn't use them. Being in a non-creedal church has stimulated me to think very carefully about what they mean and how I need to present them. I would like to have some conversation intelligent and educated people about some foundational questions within the context of orthodox Christianity. I think this is the place to do that.

So here's the starting point: the more time I spend with Scripture and tradition, the more I'm convinced that orthodox Trinitarian Christianity tells us that the world is not fair. I'm curious if this seems obvious, shocking, or somewhere in between, and interested in thoughts. Do you think that traditional Christianity tells us that life is fair?

If you're interested in viewpoints in light of Holy Tradition you are in the right place. However, be aware that I think many posting don't realize where they are so ...

Honestly whether or not life is fair is not the way the question has been asked that I'm aware of.

The most direct answer I can think of from the Orthodox point of view is that the world is fallen and sick with sin. By that very fact, evil things are going to happen and many of them are going to be "unfair".

God's activity is far less focused on fairness and justice than it is on mercy. He desires to be merciful to all. And whatever He does or allows to come into a life only happens because the seeds of greater good are somewhere in there. The greatest good of all is that one should be saved. So that is how God acts - He is not worried about balancing everything so that we see it as "fair" in this life which is temporary anyway.

It's important to remember that all things can work for our ultimate good, if we will cooperate with God. But the world is fallen and full of evil, so many bad things will happen.

 

[dzheremi]

Fairness is not the issue. The Desert Fathers, for instance, teach that this life is given to us for repentance, but also emphasize God's mercy upon us in our fallen state.

They asked Abba Sisoes, ‘If a brother sins, surely he must do penance for a year?’ He replied, ‘That is a hard saying.’ The visitors said, ‘For six months?’ He replied, ‘That is a great deal.’ They said, ‘For forty days? ‘He said, ‘That is a great deal, too. ‘They said to him, ‘What then? If a brother falls, and the agape is about to be offered, should he simply come to the agape, too? ‘The old man said to them, ‘No, he needs to do penance for a few days. But I trust in God that if such a man does penance with his whole heart, God will receive him, even in three days.’​

What's 'fair' in the above situation -- the greater time, the lesser time, or that which God accepts from one who has truly humbled himself, irrespective of our own ideas? It's not for us to judge, and yet humans are obsessed with this concept of 'fairness'. May God free us from it, and all things that distract us from true repentance and humility.

 

[bcbsr]

Hi,

I'm in the process of starting a church in the Disciples of Christ. Those of you who are familiar with the DoC will know that there are few clergy in it who would fit into the "traditional theology" forum in any way. However, I enthusiastically accept and teach the traditional creeds even though my church doesn't use them. Being in a non-creedal church has stimulated me to think very carefully about what they mean and how I need to present them. I would like to have some conversation intelligent and educated people about some foundational questions within the context of orthodox Christianity. I think this is the place to do that.

So here's the starting point: the more time I spend with Scripture and tradition, the more I'm convinced that orthodox Trinitarian Christianity tells us that the world is not fair. I'm curious if this seems obvious, shocking, or somewhere in between, and interested in thoughts. Do you think that traditional Christianity tells us that life is fair?

Not sure what would constitute "traditional Christianity" in your mind, or whether in particular I'm a "traditional Christian" or not. And not sure what you mean by life being "fair", and why you would want to start with that topic rather than something more essential and fundamental to the Christian faith like soteriology.

But if you want to start with the topic of "fairness" maybe you could share you viewpoint and allow others to scrutinize it. That's how a lot of discussion threads are started.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not sure what would constitute "traditional Christianity" in your mind, or whether in particular I'm a "traditional Christian" or not.

To answer those questions:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/traditional-theology-statement-of-purpose.7859802/

if you want to start with the topic of "fairness" maybe you could share you viewpoint and allow others to scrutinize it. That's how a lot of discussion threads are started.

Unfortunately that is not a good format for this forum area, which is meant to be topic-driven. It is suitable for General Theology and can be done there. But the OP presumably wants a Traditional viewpoint.

 

[freespiritchurch]

Thanks for the responses. It seemed fairly obvious to me that tradition tells us that life isn't fair, but I can't ever recall hearing a teacher say "life is not fair" bluntly. So I wanted to know if the unfairness of life was as obvious to other people rooted in tradition as it was to me.

Most of the Christians I run into recognize that bad things happen to good people, and certainly anyone aware of the most basic content of Scripture is going to understand that material prosperity is not a reward for righteousness. But I have run into three common beliefs that people use to explain that everything gets back neatly in balance. I'm not convinced that any of them really hold up.

1) Any evil we experience is part of a process that leads to our ultimate good.
2) The injustice of life is balanced by reward and punishment in eternity.
3) God rewards virtue in hidden ways, so that life is fair even though it doesn't appear to be so.

PS: Does "traditional" in practice mean "members churches that formally recognize tradition as a source of revelation?" I've met plenty of Protestants who are familiar with and serious about conforming to the teachings of the Church Fathers...are those people represented here?

 

[PloverWing]

1) Any evil we experience is part of a process that leads to our ultimate good.
2) The injustice of life is balanced by reward and punishment in eternity.
3) God rewards virtue in hidden ways, so that life is fair even though it doesn't appear to be so.

PS: Does "traditional" in practice mean "members churches that formally recognize tradition as a source of revelation?" I've met plenty of Protestants who are familiar with and serious about conforming to the teachings of the Church Fathers...are those people represented here?

Your options 1, 2, and 3 don't seem exactly right to me. Romans 8:28 says that God can bring good out of all things, and several places in the gospels speak of virtue being rewarded in spiritual or eternal ways, so there's some basis for #1-3; but it's not right to think of it as a careful ledger in which every good and bad thing is rewarded and punished. It's more that God's grace and love wash over us like an ocean, out of proportion to anything we might earn.

On your PS: I look to tradition as a source of revelation, and I think that's true of Anglicans/Episcopalians generally. Scripture, Tradition, Reason, the three-legged stool. I don't see the Fathers as infallible, but I have studied them and I take them very seriously.

 

[1 John 4:1]

"Traditional Theology -- A forum dedicated to the respectful discussion of traditional, historic theology; liturgical practices, doctrines, dogmatics; Holy Scripture as found in the various canons of the Church; Church History; classic confessions of the faith, etc.

Definition of Traditional Christianity:

Traditional Christians hold to the traditional beliefs and customs of the early church that Jesus Christ established and believe they should be acknowledged and used in the development of the Church today. Traditional Christians believe that the Church and associated Tradition - especially from the Apostolic / early Church - guide us even today. These traditions include sources such as church councils and creeds, writings of the early Church Fathers, testimony of the Lives of the Saints, classic confessions of the faith, etc. Many traditional Christians believe that each Christian is involved in a movement toward God, commonly known as theosis or sanctification. Traditional Christians recognize a variety of sacraments and sacramental acts including, but not limited to; Baptism, Holy Communion (Eucharist), Confession and Absolution, Chrismation (confirmation) etc., and consider them to be additional means whereby God imparts His grace on those who have faith."

Yeah, I had no idea where I was. Sorry.

 

[Chinchilla]

World is not fair for sure .God gave earth for human , not for goverment to decide who can build where , what and if you get permission or not.
There would be less slavery and homelessness if each person had little bit of land .

 

[OldWiseGuy]

World is not fair for sure .God gave earth for human , not for goverment to decide who can build where , what and if you get permission or not.
There would be less slavery and homelessness if each person had little bit of land .

People today want a cubicle, not land.

 

[Chinchilla]

People today want a cubicle, not land.

Yea like slaves in cages

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yea like slaves in cages

Most workers have their own form of cages. When I was a meat cutter my 'cage' was the space around my meat saw and block, no bigger than an office cubicle.

 

[Chinchilla]

Most workers have their own form of cages. When I was a meat cutter my 'cage' was the space around my meat saw and block, no bigger than an office cubicle.

Yea that's true . I appriciate people who cut meat it's hard work I would never be able to do such thing . I would lose all my fingers /hand while doing so .

Yea we all are like slaves in our cages no matter what we do .
The only people who are not are the ones ruling over us .