Is Jesus the only one who can pay for our sins?

[EmSw]

There is no need for "further" sacrifice since the sacrifice of Jesus is the only sacrifice acceptable to God and it has been done once for all.

There is no need for any sacrifice. Many, many people were saved without Jesus' sacrifice. Why do you fail to see this, Marvin?

Jesus doesn't need to be sacrificed "again" since His acceptable sacrifice was once and for all.

He didn't need to be sacrificed at all.

That is not the same as saying that "Jesus didn't need to be sacrificed" - and you know it.

Why do believe He needed to be sacrificed? Since it's so important to you, why didn't Jesus mention Himself being a sacrifice even once? NEVER, NEVER, NEVER did He mention Himself being a sacrifice. Was there another Jesus which mentioned himself a sacrifice?

You are so intent on being seen as worthy of salvation because of your ongoing works that you can't bring yourself to believe what forgiveness means.

You have yet to tell us what forgiveness means. Is this intentional? Since you do not want to face the truth, I will give you the meaning of forgiveness from Strong's.

remission, forgiveness, deliverance, liberty

1. release from bondage or imprisonment
   
   
2. forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
   

Now tell us Marvin, what part of forgiveness do you not get? Do you see that it is the 'remission of the penalty'? What penalty remains if they are remitted? Do you not see that it is the pardon of sins, that is, letting them go as if they had never been committed? Do you not see that forgiveness is deliverance and liberty?

Come on Marvin, I expect better things from you.

Repentance is a necessary part in receiving the sacrifice of Jesus Christ once for all for your sins.

Here you go again. The Bible does not say what you say. Nowhere will you find repentance is necessary in receiving the sacrifice. Is this what systematic theology is? Do you get to make things up as you go? I would suggest you stay as far as possible from that type of belief.

Without the shedding of Christ's blood once for all there is no forgiveness of sins.

Well, well, well. You now are giving something that is in the Bible. Let's see what Jesus says about that, shall we?

Luke 22:20
Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

Do you not see it is the cup, in which is His blood, which is shed for us? Nothing about a sacrifice or a cross. Do you ever wonder what 'cup' means spiritually? Do you ever wonder what 'blood' means spiritually? In the natural, it is only a cup and blood.

Since Jesus said to drink His blood, surely you don't take it as natural blood, do you? Maybe you do, who knows.

Without your acceptance of the shedding of Christ's blood as the only remedy for sin there will be no forgiveness of sins for you.

Again, your systematic theology assures you make crazy statements like this. The remedy for sin is repentance for remission, and casting away all your transgressions. But of course, systematic theology doesn't acknowledge this verse from Ezekiel.

Repent of your own works as the remedy for your sins and receive the Savior and His acceptable necessary sacrifice as your only hope.

NOPE! I don't believe that Roger. If you show us where Jesus said He would be a sacrifice for our sins, I might consider it. But you won't find it, and have to add to what Jesus said in order to satisfy your beliefs.

Wasn't a sacrifice supposed to be unblemished? Wasn't Jesus marred beyond recognition? Was His back blemished with scourges? On this basis, His supposed sacrifice would not have been accepted.

Also, where was a sacrifice to be offered, on a pagan's cross? NOPE! Again, His supposed sacrifice would not have been accepted. Did any sacrifice give its own life for anyone? NOPE! Read up on OT sacrifices and maybe you will see Jesus was anything but a sacrifice.

 

[bling]

Why pay when they have been forgiven? I have asked many here what forgiveness is, but no one has answered. Look it up for yourself and tell us what forgiveness means. There is no need for a sacrifice with forgiveness available.

I asked one person on this forum to find out what forgiveness means, and he walked away. I guess he was sad when he found out Jesus didn't didn't need to be sacrificed. He was so intent on Jesus being a sacrifice, I guess he couldn't bring himself to believe what forgiveness means.

God accepts repentance for the forgiveness of sins. You are right in trying to give Him something He doesn't want. Jesus said He doesn't want sacrifice, but many still try to go that route.

Answer my post 12 questions and we can get started.
You are very right if God forgives there is no payment that needs to be made.
We can look at Matt. 18 to better understand forgiveness is a transaction where both the forgiver and the forgiven has a part to play in completing the transaction. If the person being forgiven does not humbly accept that forgiveness as pure charity than forgiveness does not take place.

 

[bling]

2 Kings 14:6
But the sons of the slayers he did not put to death, according to what is written in the book of the Law of Moses, as the LORD commanded, saying, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin."

Ezekiel 18:4
"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

Ezekiel 18:20
"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Galations 6: 5
For every man shall bear his own burden.

These prophecies are in total contradiction to the belief that Jesus was to die for the sins of all sinners. Jesus appeared on earth to preach the gospel of God and those who believed in the words from the Father in heaven were blessed with knowledge. Those who reject that knowledge won't be blessed until after their bodies perish.

There is more to it start by looking at my questions on post 12

 

[EmSw]

1. If Jesus paid the total price for our sins than there is nothing for God to forgive and if God forgave our sins why do they still have to be paid for?

1. 
   
   Forgiven do not have to be paid for.
2. 
   

3. [*]Going back to Lev. 5 we find unintentional sins (really “minor” sins) could be atoned for with a bag of flour and God would forgive these sins, so was the bag of flour a substitute for the sinner?

   
   If we read correctly. And, no blood needed.

1. Parable (like Matt.18: 21-35) suggest the debt sin creates is unbelievable huge way beyond being paid, but the Master (God) can forgive this debt without anyone else paying the debt, so who is being paid and with what? (Is God blood thirsty?)

1. 
   
   There is no debt concerning sin. A debt occurs when something is owed.
   
   

   [*]The prophets talk about repentance, seeking God’s mercy (Charity) and accepting God’s forgiveness without any mention of Christ paying anything, so where repented of sins “forgive” prior to the cross?

   
   Exactly. Forgiveness has always been the way God has dealt with sin.
   
   

   [*]Look at Ro. 3:25 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished Paul is a contrast the way sins were handled with Christ going to the cross and prior to Christ going to the cross and it appears repented of sins prior cross were “he (God) had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished” Now “unpunished” could be translated “undisciplined” since they are the same Greek word, so how are we disciplined (punished) with Christ going to the cross?

   
   Well, Jesus said nothing about Himself being a sacrifice. Look at the conditions of a sacrifice. Did Jesus meet these conditions?
   
   

   [*]Paul, Christ, John, Peter and the Hebrew writer all describe Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the cross as a ransom payment (they did not say it was like a ransom payment but was a ransom payment), so who is the kidnapper of the child that would like to go to the father?

   
   A ransom, yes; a sacrifice, no. A ransom is an act of redemption.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Why do believe He needed to be sacrificed? Since it's so important to you, why didn't Jesus mention Himself being a sacrifice even once? NEVER, NEVER, NEVER did He mention Himself being a sacrifice. Was there another Jesus which mentioned himself a sacrifice?

"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." Matthew 20:28

""For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." Mark 10:45

The "sacrifice" of Christ's life was the ransom paid for our redemption.

You are an unbelieving fool.

Why this supposedly "Christian" forum allows and even protects and encourages unbelievers such as yourself to preach their false gospel here is beyond me.

In this thread as I have done elsewhere - I shake your dust from my feet.

P.S.
In all likelihood I will be reported by "EmSw" to the moderators for this post and be banned from the forum.

So be it.

It will be well worth it to have warned others about this worker of iniquity.

 

[DarthNeo]

If one is in hell, they are not paying for their sins, they are suffering the consequences of them...

 

[MDC]

All it takes to make Satan angry is to prove to him that he is a liar. Liars hate the Truth with a passion.

The "good news" is that God has planned to destroy created man's enemies called the flesh of man born of Satan and the beast.

Revelation 21
1: Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
8: But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Don't worry because your spirit in God known as the Word of God will remain intact as your flesh perishes during this first generation. Even the body of Jesus perished but since he was a man created in the image of God, he remained as the Word of God, too.

What are you saying? Do you believe Christ Jesus to be fully God and yet fully man? Who bore the sins of His people as a substitute and ransom for their redemption? What do you mean " your spirit in God known as the Word of God will remain intact as your flesh perishes during this first generation."??

 

[MDC]

There's more to it in a religious mind but to those who know the Truth, there is only ONE Father, the Lord and Savior of all created men. Even Jesus knew the voice of his Father, the Lord and Savior because the Holy Spirit delivered God's messages via His voice into the mind of Jesus. Most people do not know what the "MIND" is.

What's the "MIND"??

 

[section9+1]

If you take Christ's atonement away, Christianity loses its identity. Christ's sacrifice administered through God's grace is the foundation of everything we believe. You might as well become a Muslim or something else. At least if you worship Allah, you get a chance at virgins. Christianity doesn't even offer that.

 

[section9+1]

If a young Christian came to me and asked where to find a good place on line to grow and learn I would never, never recommend this forum. This place is a platform for heresy. I know Christians disagree on a lot of things and still remain Christian, but to give heresy a voice is damning.

 

[EmSw]

"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." Matthew 20:28

""For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." Mark 10:45

The "sacrifice" of Christ's life was the ransom paid for our redemption.

First of all, nothing is mentioned of a sacrifice. So, let's put that idea away.

Now, let's look at the context of what Jesus was saying, not just a part of the verse.

Matthew 20
24 And when the ten heard it, they were greatly displeased with the two brothers.
25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them.
26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant.
27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave—
28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

The context is about serving others, not having authority over others. Whoever desires to become great is to become a servant. Jesus said He came to serve, and not to be served. Jesus gave us the example of serving by giving all to us, even His life.

Does giving us His life necessarily mean to die? We can look at other instances of Jesus giving us His life.

John 5:21
For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

John 6:27
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

John 6:33
For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

When Jesus gives us life, He is giving us His life. Loves desires to give all to others. It is His life He gives us, which is the ransom, price, or redemption. We see from the above passages, He gives His life to us, the world, not to death.

It is when we receive His life, which He gives, that we can only have redemption. This is the ransom for many.

You are an unbelieving fool.

I forgive you Marvin. Did you know what you were doing?

Why this supposedly "Christian" forum allows and even protects and encourages unbelievers such as yourself to preach their false gospel here is beyond me.

In this thread as I have done elsewhere - I shake your dust from my feet.

If you 'predestined' things to happen, perhaps all of us 'unbelievers' wouldn't be here. You could then have all authority and have things your way. That way, you could lord it over all men.

P.S.

In all likelihood I will be reported by "EmSw" to the moderators for this post and be banned from the forum.

So be it.

It will be well worth it to have warned others about this worker of iniquity.

I've never reported anyone Marvin. What others do is beyond my control. But, there are consequences for your words. Judge not that you be not judged.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is no need for any sacrifice. Many, many people were saved without Jesus' sacrifice. Why do you fail to see this, Marvin?

He didn't need to be sacrificed at all.

So John 3:16 is not true, and Jesus' sacrifice was just a waste of time, huh?

Why do believe He needed to be sacrificed?

Only because the Bibles SAYS SO.

Heb 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Since it's so important to you, why didn't Jesus mention Himself being a sacrifice even once?

Who do you think spoke the words of John 3:16?

 

[FreeGrace2]

First of all, nothing is mentioned of a sacrifice. So, let's put that idea away.

I cannot believe the lack of understanding in this statement.

Let's see what Scripture says about Jesus and sacrifice:
Rom 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Heb 9:26 - Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:5 - Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

Heb 10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:14 - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:10 - This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

But I suspect that your mind has already been made up and these facts will have no bearing on your ideas.

 

[EmSw]

I cannot believe the lack of understanding in this statement.

Let's see what Scripture says about Jesus and sacrifice:
Rom 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Heb 9:26 - Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:5 - Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

Heb 10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:14 - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:10 - This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

But I suspect that your mind has already been made up and these facts will have no bearing on your ideas.

Not once did you quote any words from the Savior Himself. Do you want to know why? It's because He never anything about Himself being a sacrifice.

John does not use sacrifice either. It's propitiation, which means appeasing.

If a sacrifice was so important to salvation, why didn't Jesus mention it even once? He said, if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. Simple, isn't it?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Not once did you quote any words from the Savior Himself.............................

As you have shown many times - you do not believe that the entire Bible is the Word of God.

You are, in the estimation of the Lord HImself, a "fool".

"And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!"

 

[EmSw]

As you have shown many times - you do not believe that the entire Bible is the Word of God.

You are, in the estimation of the Lord HImself, a "fool".

"And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!"

Then show me where Jesus said He was a sacrifice. This is so important to you, but not once did Jesus mention it.

In fact, Jesus told you to take up YOUR OWN cross.

You also can't explain why He died on a pagan cross and not an altar. Maybe you should read Leviticus 3 and see how an acceptable, Biblical sacrifice works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not once did you quote any words from the Savior Himself.

I am familiar with your disdain for what Scripture says, esp when it refutes your views.

Do you want to know why? It's because He never anything about Himself being a sacrifice.

Is that your phony criteria? It was Jesus who said John 3:16. The word "gave" has a wide application, and among them, my lexicon gives "offer in sacrifice". The same word is used in Gal 1:4 - who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.

This verse specifically refers to John 3:16, which was spoken by Jesus Himself.

So you have no excuse for your errant views.

John does not use sacrifice either. It's propitiation, which means appeasing.

Appeasing through sacrifice.

If a sacrifice was so important to salvation, why didn't Jesus mention it even once?

It is clear from this question that you have absolutely no clue about how and why salvation is available to mankind.

He said, if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. Simple, isn't it?

You are so stuck on one misunderstood verse. Amazing. Your views are the same as that of the Pharisees in Jesus' day. This is what He told them in John 5:
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

The conclusion from your views is that Jesus wasted His time on the cross, dying for the sins of mankind.

Pitiful view.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then show me where Jesus said He was a sacrifice. This is so important to you, but not once did Jesus mention it.

In fact, Jesus told you to take up YOUR OWN cross.

You also can't explain why He died on a pagan cross and not an altar. Maybe you should read Leviticus 3 and see how an acceptable, Biblical sacrifice works.

WHy do you only "cherry-pick" the Bible?

 

[EmSw]

WHy do you only "cherry-pick" the Bible?

Why do you add to what Jesus said. He said for you to take up your own cross. He said nothing about His cross or a sacrifice of Himself...absolutely nothing! If it's so important to your doctrines, why didn't He mention it even once?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why do you add to what Jesus said.

No, the real question is why you have ignored what Jesus said?

He said for you to take up your own cross.

Did He say that for salvation? Absolutely NOT.

He said nothing about His cross or a sacrifice of Himself...absolutely nothing!

Then please explain WHY He even went to the cross.

If it's so important to your doctrines, why didn't He mention it even once?

I have already explained that to you. He, in fact, DID mention his coming sacrifice on the cross in John 3:16, which is linked to Gal 1:4 by the word for "gave". It means to give sacrificially.

However, it seems you're just not willing (or able) to explain why Jesus bothered sacrificing Himself on a cross for the sins of mankind. Why is that?