Is Jesus more than a prophet?

[cbradley]

Clearly, if you're a Christian, you believe in Christ - that he not just a person, but is the son of God and died for the sins of mankind that they no longer shed blood to open the gates of heaven and live in peace for eternity. But one of the problems I have with Christianity and believing in it is the prophecy. Specifically, Christ's messiah status in the light of the complete bible, and how it appears to defy the teachings of free will and man's ability to choose a righteous or non-righteous path.

When I was younger, I first read the prophecy of Christ when I was in trouble. Usually, I'd do something, and my mother would pick bible verses that were "related" for me to read as a punishment. Ignoring the fact that I've been told several times my opposition to religion has to do with an ingrained notion that the bible is a punishment - I've been through that with SO MANY people, it's not even funny anymore - on this particular event, she had me read through Genesis. I happened to read over the prophecy of the Messiah, and got curious.

My curiousity led me to my mother's preacher. When I asked him to clearly define the events and signs of the messiah, he went into detail. He told me the story of Abraham. Since then, I have felt like Christians have stolen the birthright of somebody else.

I know this board isn't a "debate" board, but it's really my only question.

According to the old Jewish law, when Hagar laid with Abraham, her child was Sarah's also. Given that humans have free will as stated in Deuteronomy, would God's prophecy not have followed Ishmael since the humans took it upon themselves to expedite the process? That even though he wasn't the miracle birth God had planned for Abraham, he was the first born of Abraham and legal child of Sarah, and he fulfilled that portion of the prophecy? Or are we to assume that Christ IS the messiah, and that God decided that free will be damned?

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

You're missing one very important piece of the puzzle. When God made his promises to Abraham there was no Jewish nation, and no Jewish law.

Besides that, the Lord specifically says he will bless the world through Sarah.

15 Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16 And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.” (Genesis 17:15-16 NKJV)

 

[solarwave]

According to the old Jewish law, when Hagar laid with Abraham, her child was Sarah's also. Given that humans have free will as stated in Deuteronomy, would God's prophecy not have followed Ishmael since the humans took it upon themselves to expedite the process? That even though he wasn't the miracle birth God had planned for Abraham, he was the first born of Abraham and legal child of Sarah, and he fulfilled that portion of the prophecy? Or are we to assume that Christ IS the messiah, and that God decided that free will be damned?

The rest of the prophecies follow the decent of Isaac so would seem to show that God chose to take that path.

I'm not sure why this has anything to do with free will. The humans were allowed to act how they chose and God and God chose to have Jesus born to the people He wanted Him to be born to.

 

[drich0150]

Clearly, if you're a Christian, you believe in Christ - that he not just a person, but is the son of God and died for the sins of mankind that they no longer shed blood to open the gates of heaven and live in peace for eternity. But one of the problems I have with Christianity and believing in it is the prophecy. Specifically, Christ's messiah status in the light of the complete bible, and how it appears to defy the teachings of free will and man's ability to choose a righteous or non-righteous path.

When I was younger, I first read the prophecy of Christ when I was in trouble. Usually, I'd do something, and my mother would pick bible verses that were "related" for me to read as a punishment. Ignoring the fact that I've been told several times my opposition to religion has to do with an ingrained notion that the bible is a punishment - I've been through that with SO MANY people, it's not even funny anymore - on this particular event, she had me read through Genesis. I happened to read over the prophecy of the Messiah, and got curious.

My curiousity led me to my mother's preacher. When I asked him to clearly define the events and signs of the messiah, he went into detail. He told me the story of Abraham. Since then, I have felt like Christians have stolen the birthright of somebody else.

I know this board isn't a "debate" board, but it's really my only question.

According to the old Jewish law, when Hagar laid with Abraham, her child was Sarah's also. Given that humans have free will as stated in Deuteronomy, would God's prophecy not have followed Ishmael since the humans took it upon themselves to expedite the process? That even though he wasn't the miracle birth God had planned for Abraham, he was the first born of Abraham and legal child of Sarah, and he fulfilled that portion of the prophecy? Or are we to assume that Christ IS the messiah, and that God decided that free will be damned?

I would have you look at your definition of Free Will. What does it mean to you?

Here are some basic understandings of words that have somehow seemed to have lost their meaning on us:

Sin, is anything not in the expressed Will of God

Evil, is a malicious intent to commit sin.

Not all sin is Evil, but all evil is sin.

Free Will is the ability to choose a will outside of the Expressed will of God. In other words Free Will is the ability to Sin.

Abraham demonstrated that His free will was indeed intact when He had a son with Hagar who was not his wife. Because free will is not the ability for one to write his or her own destiny it Abraham's actions had little effect on the plans of God.

 

[elman]

Clearly, if you're a Christian, you believe in Christ - that he not just a person, but is the son of God and died for the sins of mankind that they no longer shed blood to open the gates of heaven and live in peace for eternity. But one of the problems I have with Christianity and believing in it is the prophecy. Specifically, Christ's messiah status in the light of the complete bible, and how it appears to defy the teachings of free will and man's ability to choose a righteous or non-righteous path.

When I was younger, I first read the prophecy of Christ when I was in trouble. Usually, I'd do something, and my mother would pick bible verses that were "related" for me to read as a punishment. Ignoring the fact that I've been told several times my opposition to religion has to do with an ingrained notion that the bible is a punishment - I've been through that with SO MANY people, it's not even funny anymore - on this particular event, she had me read through Genesis. I happened to read over the prophecy of the Messiah, and got curious.

My curiousity led me to my mother's preacher. When I asked him to clearly define the events and signs of the messiah, he went into detail. He told me the story of Abraham. Since then, I have felt like Christians have stolen the birthright of somebody else.

I know this board isn't a "debate" board, but it's really my only question.

According to the old Jewish law, when Hagar laid with Abraham, her child was Sarah's also. Given that humans have free will as stated in Deuteronomy, would God's prophecy not have followed Ishmael since the humans took it upon themselves to expedite the process? That even though he wasn't the miracle birth God had planned for Abraham, he was the first born of Abraham and legal child of Sarah, and he fulfilled that portion of the prophecy? Or are we to assume that Christ IS the messiah, and that God decided that free will be damned?

I don't follow why free will is not compatible with Jesus being the Messiah.

 

[cbradley]

The way I understand free will is basically mans ability to choose what path they follow. In the sense of destiny, yes, it would rewrite it.

Did God intend for Adam & Eve to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, or did they, when they chose to, invoke their free will and choose that path for themselves? When Jesus died, its my understanding that he could've walked away. He wasn't forced to be a sacrifice. He chose it to follow God's will, which suggests that man can detour from "destiny" if they want to.

So God's will was for Isaac to father the legacy, but the way the prophecy was worded, since Abraham couldn't wait, wouldn't that mean Ishmael - perhaps in the same form as Esau - should have been the bloodline instead?

 

[bling]

God can know our free will choices before (in our time frame) we make the choice. It is still our free will choice. God could “know” that Abraham would try and help God out by using Hagar, but that was not going to be the line even if Ishmael was the oldest (the line does not have to follow the oldest son).

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']God could know Adam and Eve would sin of their own free will, but sin actually has purpose and we cannot fulfill our objective here after sinning as Adam and Eve has shown us. [/FONT]

 

[zaksmummy]

Gods promise and covenant to Abraham was that God would give him a child by his legitimate wife, Sarah, Hagar was his concubine and so her child was not the legitimate heir. Later God goes on to renew the covenant he made with Abraham with Isaac and Jacob.

Sarah also wanted Abraham to cast out Ishmael because he was belittling Issac, which Abraham did.

Just because he did this doesnt mean that he didnt care about Ishmael or that God abandoned Ishmael, but Gods covenant passed through Isaac because Abraham was faithful to God when he asked him to sacrifice Issac, he didnt hold him back.

Jewish tradition has it that Isaac was an adult and that he knew why they were going to the mountain, ie that he would be the sacrifice, but he went all that same, trusting in God as his father did.

 

[knight72]

I would have to agree that freewill, and God's announcement of prophecy are not mutually exclusive. I think God can know our choice, and it can still be a freewill choice.

Example, if I know my son will choose one response in a situation, when it comes to him choosing, it's still his choice to make. My knowledge does not eliminate him choosing.

 

[Spirko]

Specifically, Christ's messiah status in the light of the complete bible, and how it appears to defy the teachings of free will and man's ability to choose a righteous or non-righteous path.

What teachings are those? The Bible never teaches that man has free will or that he has the ability to choose a "righteous or non-righteous path".

Given that humans have free will as stated in Deuteronomy

What verse in Deuteronomy says that?

Just so you know, I'm not ignoring your question, but I believe we have to straighten this out first because when you start a question with a false premise, you'll always get a false conclusion.