Is Jesus God?

[CantThinkofaUserName]

If so, why does He not know the following (Mark 13:32):

Matthew 24:36,Mark 13:32 - Passage Lookup - King James Version - BibleGateway.com

Also, has Jesus ever referred to Himself as, "I Am That I Am?"

And has the Father ever referred to Himself simply as, "I Am?"

Thanks!

 

[Bible2]

CantThinkofaUserName:
Is Jesus God?

Yes (John 1:1,14).

If so, why does He not know the following (Mark 13:32)

His limited knowledge was part of his becoming fully human like us (Hebrews 2:17).

Also, has Jesus ever referred to Himself as, "I Am That I Am?"

No. But John 8:58 is close enough.

And has the Father ever referred to Himself simply as, "I Am?"

Yes (latter part of Exodus 3:14).

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

So you're saying that when the above passage refers to the "Son", it implies human form and not spirit, correct? And thus Jesus' spirit knew all, including the end date and time?

In the Hebrews 2:17 link you posted it states, "7For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way." Which makes me wonder: Is the -human- part of Jesus connected with God in any way? If so, is that connection any different from the way any other human is connected with God?

 

[ebia]

Yes.

If so, why does He not know the following (Mark 13:32):

Matthew 24:36,Mark 13:32 - Passage Lookup - King James Version - BibleGateway.com

Because the whole point of incarnation is to take on what it means to be fully human - including limitations like not knowing everything.

Also, has Jesus ever referred to Himself as, "I Am That I Am?"

No.

And has the Father ever referred to Himself simply as, "I Am?"

I wouldn't know.

The point isn't whether Jesus claimed to be divine - he didn't in so many words. Jesus didn't go around saying "I am God", and almost certainly didn't think in those terms. But he realised he had, and lived out, a vocation to be, say and do what YHWH was supposed to be, say and do to the point that his followers put two and two together, combined with the resurrection which forced a rethink about everything, and within 20 years at the most had realised what that made him.

The whole point of John's "I am..." statements is to point towards divinity without stating it outright because Jesus didn't state it outright.

 

[ebia]

So you're saying that when the above passage refers to the "Son", it implies human form and not spirit, correct? And thus Jesus' spirit knew all, including the end date and time?

This wasn't addressed to me, but no. Jesus incarnation involved setting aside things like that. One person, one set of knowledge. Divine, but setting aside the priviledges of being divine. (Philippians 2, or even John 13 if you know how to read it.)

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

One person, one set of knowledge

So neither His spirit nor his body knew "all?" How then, while Jesus walked earth, was He God?

 

[Bible2]

CantThinkofaUserName:
So you're saying that when the above passage refers to the "Son", it implies human form and not spirit, correct?

While God the Word (John 1:1) did not become the "Son" until he was born as a human (Luke 1:35), the human form includes spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

And thus Jesus' spirit knew all, including the end date and time?

Yes, but the spirit in a human can know things that the human mind doesn't know (1 Corinthians 14:14).

In the Hebrews 2:17 link you posted it states, "7For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way." Which makes me wonder: Is the -human- part of Jesus connected with God in any way? If so, is that connection any different from the way any other human is connected with God?

It's not like there is a human "part" of Jesus; he is God in human form (John 1:1,14). He is different from other humans in that, because he is God at the same time, he has the Spirit of God without measure (John 3:34, Colossians 2:9).

 

[Chesterton]

Also, has Jesus ever referred to Himself as, "I Am That I Am?"

I don't understand languages myself, but this is something I've come across (through an old thread in the now defunct "Languages" forum):

In the Aramaic language which Jesus spoke, almost every time he said what in English is simply "I am" (as when he said "I am the door, I am the true vine", etc.), in Aramaic actually implied "I Am [The Living God], the door...". For example:

Ena Na refers to the Name of God, and was used to indicate that what was being said was coming from the mouth of God.

Anyway, don't ask me to explain it any further, I don't fully understand it, , but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[ebia]

So neither His spirit nor his body knew "all?"

Jesus isn't a divine spirit in a human body. Jesus is fully human and fully divine.

How then, while Jesus walked earth, was He God?

What makes you think "knowing all" is a fundamental quality of being divine that cannot be set aside?

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

His limited knowledge was part of his becoming fully human like us (Hebrews 2:17).

When did the transition from "spirit without measure" (thanks, by the way, never read that verse before) to "He had to be made like his brothers in every way" (Hebrews 17) happen?

Also, when it says that he was made like "His brothers in every way", did He, after that point, still have the "spirit without measure?" If so, could you please explain how. Thanks!

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Chesterton: Wow, thank you! That is very, very interesting. I've never heard the aramaic version of "I Am" up until just now.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

What makes you think "knowing all" is a fundamental quality of being divine that cannot be set aside?

Not sure how you came up with that answer by the question I asked, but I didn't say that "knowing all" can't be set aside. If it -was- set aside, tho', then I don't understand how Jesus could be "fully divine." His "all knowing" spirit had limitations just as the rest of our spirits do, and God was still "all knowing." Jesus = not all knowing. God = all knowing. Clear difference?

 

[Bible2]

CantThinkofaUserName:
... when it says that he was made like "His brothers in every way", did He, after that point, still have the "spirit without measure?"

Yes. Jesus as a human, because he is also God at the same time (John 20:28), has the Spirit of God without measure (John 3:34, Colossians 2:9) in addition to his human spirit, which is just like our spirit (Hebrews 2:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Jesus = not all knowing. God = all knowing. Clear difference?

While there is a clear difference between the Person of God the Son (Hebrews 1:8) and the Person of God the Father, remaining all-knowing is not necessary for the Son to remain fully-divine: his being fully-divine does not restrict his ability to purposely limit his all-knowingness in order to fully share in the condition of the humans he came to save (Hebrews 2:17).

 

[Van]

Hi CantThinkofaUserName, great topic for a thread in Exploring Christianity! Thanks.

Is Jesus God? Yes. See John 1:1-14.

If Jesus was "fully divine" why does He not know what His divine Father knows, i.e. the time of His return to earth? Here I think the answer turns on just what is the idea of being "fully divine." My physical father was fully human and I am the son of my father, so I am "fully human." Does that mean I know everything my father knew? Nope.

When did God the Son, the Word of John 1:1, set aside equality with the Father? At conception, when the Word became flesh.

Was there any difference between how we are connected with God and how Jesus is connected with God? Yes. Our human Spirit was "created" within our physical substance, whereas Christ's divine Spirit existed before the time of His conception, before the time of Abraham, before creation, since all things were made through Him and nothing was made apart from Him.

Did Jesus have a human spirit and a divine spirit? Nope, when He was dying on the cross, and when the spirit departs the body dies, He commended His Spirit, singular, to God.

Did Jesus ever claim to be God? When He said He was the Son of God, He is claiming to be God, just as when I say I am the son of a human, I am claiming to be human.
Some folks deny this, but the Jews that heard Jesus say "I and the Father are One,they certainly understood it to be a claim to be God. See John 10:30-33

Does the term "Son" refer to Christ's spirit or his physical body? The Bible refers to the pre-incarnate Spirit of Christ both as the Word, John 1:1, and as the Son, see Hebrews 1:8-13, where the author of Hebrews "applies the term Son to the pre-incarnate Spirit of Christ.

In summary, according to the Bible, Jesus is God Almighty, Yahweh in the flesh! But the pre-incarnate Spirit of Christ did not see equality with God to be a thing to be grasped, but instead humbled Himself to become flesh, Philippians 2:6-8.

 

[Van]

Did Jesus ever say He is "I AM." In addition to the reference cited by others, John 8:58, we can also consider the burning bush of Exodus Chapter 3. Which person of the Trinity is speaking to Moses? Could it not be the Word, the person of the trinity that reveals to God man? I think yes, but I accept this is supposition. I also believe the "Angel of the Lord" seen in several OT passages is God the Son. But scholars come down on both sides of that issue as well.

May God Bless

 

[Supreme]

While God the Word (John 1:1) did not become the "Son" until he was born as a human (Luke 1:35), the human form includes spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

This is where it becomes complicated. God the Son has always existed, for He created the Earth and the Heavens. However, Jesus has only existed since two thousand years ago.

 

[ebia]

Not sure how you came up with that answer by the question I asked, but I didn't say that "knowing all" can't be set aside. If it -was- set aside, tho', then I don't understand how Jesus could be "fully divine." His "all knowing" spirit had limitations just as the rest of our spirits do, and God was still "all knowing." Jesus = not all knowing. God = all knowing. Clear difference?

Jesus isn't defined as being divine by his power, but by his ontology - his fundamental nature. "all knowing" is not part of the definition of God such that he ceases to be God if he lays aside all-knowingness.

Some things are fundamental to who God is, and some are not. The idea that things like omniscience fall into the first category, that god is defined by power, is closer to a greek idea that it is to a biblical one.

(Math's teacher hat on - the equals signs are inaccurate and misleading.)

 

[ebia]

Chesterton: Wow, thank you! That is very, very interesting. I've never heard the aramaic version of "I Am" up until just now.

I've heard it, but I'm not at all sure it is true.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

God the Father, remaining all-knowing is not necessary for the Son to remain fully-divine

Can't wrap my head around that. Isn't omniscience one of the few ways God has been described? Where does one draw the line, then, if you drop that? You say that omniscience is not needed to be fully divine? Can one also drop omnipotent and omnipresent from the list of things God is and still say He's God?

It's kind of like that "rock/build" argument: Can God build a rock so heavy that He can't pick it up? On one side of the coin, you want to say, "Yes, of course He can. He can do --anything--!" But if He did build a rock so heavy that He couldn't pick it up, then there would be something that He is unable to do: Pick up the rock. And thus, one would conclude that He is not omnipotent.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

My physical father was fully human and I am the son of my father, so I am "fully human." Does that mean I know everything my father knew? Nope.

Thanks very much for your detailed reply, I really appreciate it.

To me, I would think you'd have to compare likeness to likeness. Humans can't read each others minds. The whole point of being "fully divine" consists of many things, one of which happens to be omniscience. You're using omniscience to describe the human form. You have to compare human things to each other and say, "since my dad is human and has thoughts, or limbs; fingers and hands, then I -also- have the same." If Jesus is God, then on the surface one would expect Him to "know all" as God knows all, otherwise, it's, IMO, simple to say that Jesus was from a divine source, but not exactly God.

When did God the Son, the Word of John 1:1, set aside equality with the Father? At conception, when the Word became flesh.

I seen a movie of Jesus' last few years, and it showed Jesus being asked (in the desert, by, I believe, the devil?) to separate Himself from Gods omniscience (the movie had a few A-list actors in it, so I'm assuming they did their research) so that He'd be able to -really- be tempted. He was already 31 (?) years old at the time. So is there any scripture that either mentions or implies the separation or was it implied?

Was there any difference between how we are connected with God and how Jesus is connected with God? Yes.

What I would like to know is this: While Jesus was on earth, how exactly was His spirit different than ours? Meaning, you guys say that His spirit, in one sense, was the -same- as ours in that He was not all-knowing (He had "limit his all-knowing(ness)" as Bible2 mentioned), but what exactly was different? What kind of connection did His spirit have with God that normal people did not? Was there nothing different? Was Jesus' spirit, besides -not- being created (as is the case with humans, which you mentioned) the -only- thing that differentiated Jesus' spirit on earth from that of humans? Or was there also something else? If there was something else that was different, please provide scripture, if possible.

Thanks!