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Is Jesus a "pagan" name?

Higher Truth

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I cannot find my files on the grammar application of the greek. [I will keep looking] From memory, I believe that with Greek names, the spelling may change with application. [subject, object, etc] but I will have to check further. Here is an interesting article that I found:

http://www.letusreason.org/sacna4.htm

I do not know much about this site.
 
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Higher Truth

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Simchat:

If it exists in the Greek, then the argument falls apart and it remains a possibility that Iesous is derived from Zeus.

HT:

From the article that I posted a link for earlier in the thread:

This statement is a prime example of the pseudo scholarship that seems pervasive within the Sacred Name Movement.
The quotation has the name of the Greek goddess of health and healing as Iaso. In Greek, the nominative case of this word is spelled with the Greek letters Iota, Alpha, Sigma, Omega - Iasw. The Greek word Jesus in nominative case is spelled Iota, Eta, Sigma, Omicron, Upsilon, Sigma - IhsouV. Didn't anyone at Institute for Scripture Research notice the different second letters - Alpha and Eta - in the two words?* Sure they did. They just hoped you and I wouldn't notice. We did.

This brings us to the mention and use the Institute makes of the genitive forms of the two words. For Iaso, the genitive, as given by ISR, in Greek letters is IasouV. For Jesus, the genitive in Greek letters is Ihsou. The impression the Institute desires to leave with us and certainly with avid Sacred Name converts who read their bible and its notes is that the words are the same. However, the words are not at all the same. They are like the English words bell and ball. Consider the genitive forms of these words, bell's and ball's. That one letter makes them entirely different words.
Bell's and ball's may look alike and even sound a bit alike, but that is the end of their similarity. One is not derived from the other. The Greek words IasouV and Ihsou to some may look alike and they, too, sound a bit alike. There ends their similarity. One is in no case derived from the other. The people at Institute for Scripture Research know this.


http://www.sacrednamemovement.com/JesusZeus.htm
 
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The Thadman

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The word Jesus has a long etymological history. Off the top of my head:

It starts out in the Hebrew, "Yehoshua" which means "YHWH Saves."

In Aramaic, instances of the tetragrammation lose their Heys, so it is transformed into "Yeshua`" which can either mean "YHWH saves" or "He will save."

Later when it was translated into Greek, there had to be some phonetic re-arrangements, as the Greek alphabet is insufficient for reproducing all of the sounds of the Semitic.

Y e SH U a ~
I E S O U S

There is no "Y" sound in the Greek alphabet, so the Yood was transliterated an Iota, followed by the Rbotso (the "EY" vowel in Aramaic) translitterated directly to an Epsilon. There is no unvoiced post-velolar fricative in Greek ("SH") so Sigma was employed in place of the Sheen. We know that this transliteration was in use, because other words in the Greek NT where Aramaic is transcribed employ it (shvaqtonee to sabachthani for example). The combination Omicron-Upsilon replaced the Wau, as the only way to obtain an "OO" sound in Greek is with a dipthong. The `E is dropped altogether, as the Greek alphabet has nothing even CLOSE to something like sound that precedes vomiting, and it is theorized that in some dialects of Aramaic, `Es were silent like modern Hebrew's Aiyn. It is alternatively theorized that the Upsilon was used to translitterate the `E instead, but this would lead to a voweling of the word that is nowhere on record. Finally, to make the word masculine, as Jesus -was- a man, a terminal Sigma was added to signify the Masculine Singular.

Next, the name went through Latin, where it was translitterated, dropping the omicron, as the "OO" sound is reproducible by the Latin letter U, giving us IESUS.

In later church Latin, initial I's were changed to J's, a new letter on the block, today, less than 500 years old, giving us "JESUS" (pronounced "YAY-SOOS"). I believe that this convention was created in Germany, where in German J is pronounced much like the English Y, but have yet to confirm this for the language at that time. This, if I am correct, is where we get initial Js for all of our Biblical words beginning with Yoods, as most of our modern Bibles went through Germany with Martin Luther and his contemporaries. To this day, the vast majority of Aramaic and, I think, Hebrew study comes from Germany.

Finally this Germanized Latin was transmitted directly into English, where all rules for pronunciation change.

- First, J has a different pronunciation. Instead of a closed frontal vowel ("EE"), J is a voiced palatial approximant ("JUH").

- Due to it's position in the word, the E is pronounced long ("EE" as opposed to "EH" or "EY").

- The first S, in its position sandwiched between vowels, gets voiced (so the first S sound like "Z"); and

- The U, due to it's position in the word, is pronounced short ("UH" as opposed to "OO"), giving us our modern English spelling identical to the Germanized Latin, but the pronunciation now as:

"JESUS" (JEE-ZUS)

Jesus in the end is not pagan, but an English Greco-Latinized Semitic word with German influence.

WHAT a game to telephone to play through 6 languages over 2000 years!

Shlomo,
(Peace)
 
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Higher Truth

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A quick note on the word "g o d":
Gad is a Syrian or Canaanite deity of good luck or fortune. In Hebrew, it is written GD, but with Massoretic vowel-pointing, it is "Gad." Other Scriptural references to a similar deity, also written GD, have a vowel-pointing giving us "Gawd" or "God." Gad, or Gawd is identified with Jupiter, the Sky-deity or the Sun-deity.

HT:

Gad is a common noun found in the Hebrew language. It is also the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Did God not forsee this naming happening? He spoke to the prophets of old, surely He could have worked something out if this name was an abomination in His eyes.


Simchat:

Similarly, the word "l o r d" also has pagan influence:
There was an Etruscan house deity whose name was Lar, which signified "Lord." It was also known as Larth, who later on became very popular in Rome and became known as Lares (plural) because as idol statues they were usually in pairs. The Greek equivalent of this name was Heros, which was another name for Zeus. A feminine form was known as Lara, who was the beloved of the god Mercury. Lord has since been derived from Lar and Larth. The letters "th" and "d" were virtually interchangeably used, in various nations. It was also common to find "o" and "a" interchangeably used in Old and Middle English. The word "Lord" can also be traced back to Loride, a surname for the Teutonic god Thor, and to Lordo, another deity.


HT:

I have heard this argument as well, but the bottom line is that 13 million Jews use the Name Adonai, which is translated as Lord. baal is translated as lord [small l] or master. Adonai is translated as Lord [capital L].With this in mind translate baal shem tov [the kabbalists name] into english.It appears that Jews were not afraid of these names.
 
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simchat_torah

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Gad is a common noun found in the Hebrew language. It is also the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Did God not forsee this naming happening? He spoke to the prophets of old, surely He could have worked something out if this name was an abomination in His eyes


It isn't about 'finding something similar', but instead pointing to why a particular word was historically chosen. " g o d " was chosen specifically because of its pagan heritage and connection.

I have heard this argument as well, but the bottom line is that 13 million Jews use the Name Adonai, which is translated as Lord. baal is translated as lord [small l] or master. Adonai is translated as Lord [capital L].With this in mind translate baal shem tov [the kabbalists name] into english.It appears that Jews were not afraid of these names.

Yes, I understand quite well what translation is currently used today. I am not so dumb.

However, I was examining what specifically are the origins of this translation. Why was a translation used instead of a transliteration? And why would a particular word be chosen as the translation?

There is a history behind everything.

We would be wise and discerning to discover this history.

Shalom,
Yafet.
 
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simchat_torah

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Thadman,

While you're here, I was wondering if you could shed any light on the subject for us. In your opinion, how does one derive Iesous from ܝܶܫܽܘܥ (yeshoo' - Aramaic) ?

I have read in numerous places that the 's' was added to denote masculinity, but what I fail to see is where the semetic 'ayin' (
ayin3.gif
) went to from the Hebraic language? If this was a true transliteration the Ayin would have remained intact, nu?


Anyway, that was just an afterthought.

Shalom,
Yafet.
 
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The Thadman

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simchat_torah said:
Thadman,

While you're here, I was wondering if you could shed any light on the subject for us. In your opinion, how does one derive Iesous from ?????? (yeshoo' - Aramaic) ?

I have read in numerous places that the 's' was added to denote masculinity, but what I fail to see is where the semetic 'ayin' (
ayin3.gif
) went to from the Hebraic language? If this was a true transliteration the Ayin would have remained intact, nu?


Anyway, that was just an afterthought.

Shalom,
Yafet.

I already have in my previous post here. `E/`Ayin in some dialects of Aramaic was silent like it is in most dialects of modern Hebrew, hence it was not transcribed. This is also why some manuscripts read Jesus words as "talitha koum" instead of "talitha koumi": In some dialects of Aramaic (like Modern Western Syriac), terminal Yoodhs are silent, where in others they are voiced (Modern Eastern Syriac, Chaldee, etc.).

Shlomo,
-Steve-o
 
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The Thadman

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simchat_torah said:
oh sorry, I must have overlooked that.

:(

Perfectly alright :) I did kinda ramble on a bit, as the etymology of "Jesus" is really long and convoluted. When one works with any translation it gets difficult, but when you're working with translations of translations, it gets even more tricky.

Moryo `amokh,
(Lord YHWH be with you,)
-Steve-o
 
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