Is it really a choice?

[Nadiine]

No matter where we are in our Christian journey, we always need help. Being a Christian at 8 years old is a drastically different experience than being a Christian at 22, which is different than your experience will be at 31, which I assume is different than it will be at 50, and so forth. I wish you the best in that journey, and I pray that you will have (if you do not already) have a supportive community of believers along with you on that journey.

But I bet if she was in a more liberal group of people who
claimed Christianity she wouldn't have this problem.

I honestly believe this is about being anti conservative in how
conservatives view Christianity and scripture as the source of
our teaching.

I'd like to know specifically what they're telling her to do or be
like as opposed to how she is now.

 

[Nadiine]

/sigh
As ive said in earlier posts, its not as if Im committing crimes against god and they are pulling me up on it.

I didnt say that I dont accept the Bible, I just find myself questioning it our ability to rely on it and our putting it first before a relationship with God.

I got judgemental looks and avoided once because I wore a black blouse and black pants to church.

K, let me just quote your own posts regarding this and why I said
it like I did:

Originally Posted by dGirl1986

God is my authority. But, God is not the Bible. I cannot 100% trust waht man has written for man is easily corrupt, man easily misinterperates and man often abuses the power of their position to make things the way they want them.
​

I think we can know gods will by speaking with him and wiating for an answer. I think there is too much emphasis in words on a page rather than a relationship
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=50459504&postcount=87

Even when im at closest with the Lord, it still felt like an unnatural restriction. I wanted to obey what the bible said, but i have issues with the bible and i have issues with the unnaturalness of it.
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=50459482&postcount=86

Basically these all lead to not taking the Bible as the source of
God's truth and that it's fallible & awkward -
to say they're just words on a page says alot.

So my point is to get to the source of why you disagree w/
these people . . ie. what category of Christians they are (if
Christians at all).

If it's legalistic legalism, then it's best that we're not around
them at all. If it's genuine Christians who hold the traditional
Orthodox view of scripture, then they aren't legalists, they're
promoting what the Bible says usually w/out the extreme fundamentalism(most likely)- and it might be wise to listen instead of shut
them out automatically....

That's the only reason I was trying to pinpoint this. The generalities
that have been going on here, don't help us find out the real issues
going on.
All we hear is attack on them from you & what they're doing wrong,
but have no specifics or what you base your view from.

So I"m not being combative, just seeking to pinpoint things
so we know where you're coming from & why you have disagreement.

 

[Nadiine]

/sigh

As ive said in earlier posts, its not as if Im committing crimes against god and they are pulling me up on it.

I didnt say that I dont accept the Bible, I just find myself questioning it our ability to rely on it and our putting it first before a relationship with God.

I got judgemental looks and avoided once because I wore a black blouse and black pants to church.

K, well, I don't know how low cut the blouse might of been,
if the pants were skin tight, or . . who knows what they saw.

If they have issues w/ black - then that's legalism (and irritates me
becuz my favorite color is black and I wear it all the time).

I don't know why Christians sit & give wierd looks to people at all
in church - that's wrongful judgment on appearance and they can
be stumbling a soul that's searching. Not good.
In that case maybe it's best not to hang out w/ them.
I'd pray God have them look at their own judgmentalness and stop
casting it on people.

 

[Poverello78]

Like ive said before, its simply a case of me being tired of others telling me how to be, Im not looking for approval from them. I dont aspire to fit in, you get to a point where you think, whats the point of being with these people when they are trying to change me into what they think I should be.

That makes perfect sense to me, but I think you misunderstand my point or, at least, the things I've been saying are too general and ought to have been more specific to this exact situation.

You've said that you're tired of others "telling you how to be" and, since you've posted a thread in a public forum about it, I think it's safe to say that, whether you know it or not, you're here either looking for an argument, agreement, or at least some answers--I'm prepared to give you all three if you'd like; But my main focus when discussing someone's issues is always how the person I'm discussing with can learn from and overcome whatever it is that's bothering them without having to alter their circumstances much, which is what I've been trying to do.

 

[elephunky]

K, let me just quote your own posts regarding this and why I said
it like I did:







Basically these all lead to not taking the Bible as the source of
God's truth and that it's fallible & awkward -
to say they're just words on a page says alot.

So my point is to get to the source of why you disagree w/
these people . . ie. what category of Christians they are (if
Christians at all).

If it's legalistic legalism, then it's best that we're not around
them at all. If it's genuine Christians who hold the traditional
Orthodox view of scripture, then they aren't legalists, they're
promoting what the Bible says usually w/out the extreme fundamentalism(most likely)- and it might be wise to listen instead of shut
them out automatically....

That's the only reason I was trying to pinpoint this. The generalities
that have been going on here, don't help us find out the real issues
going on.
All we hear is attack on them from you & what they're doing wrong,
but have no specifics or what you base your view from.

So I"m not being combative, just seeking to pinpoint things
so we know where you're coming from & why you have disagreement.

Those posts are no longer valid in my view of God and the Bible. I am not totally against the bible, I just be wary of the opinions expressed in it.

K, well, I don't know how low cut the blouse might of been,
if the pants were skin tight, or . . who knows what they saw.

If they have issues w/ black - then that's legalism (and irritates me
becuz my favorite color is black and I wear it all the time).

I don't know why Christians sit & give wierd looks to people at all
in church - that's wrongful judgment on appearance and they can
be stumbling a soul that's searching. Not good.
In that case maybe it's best not to hang out w/ them.
I'd pray God have them look at their own judgmentalness and stop
casting it on people.

...barely any chest was visible and i dont wear tight pants cos im fat...

 

[dies-l]

But I bet if she was in a more liberal group of people who
claimed Christianity she wouldn't have this problem.

I honestly believe this is about being anti conservative in how
conservatives view Christianity and scripture as the source of
our teaching.

I don't know how this becomes a liberal/conservative discussion. But, honestly, if her issue is with certain strains of conservatism, I can't say that I blame her. I go to a church that is, by and large, considerably more conservative than I am. For a while, I really struggled with this, because, among some of the members, there seemed to be an unspoken understanding that, if you disagreed with them in their theology or politics, then you must disagree with the Bible. But, the more I actually turned to Scripture, instead of other people, the more I found myself disagreeing with these same people.

Eventually, I had to come to the point of being comfortable with what I believe that God had revealed to me through Scripture and with who God had created me to be. When I came to this point, suddenly those disagreements didn't seem to be such deal breakers. Rather, I learned that what is more important than any bit of doctrine is that I learn to love and serve other people. When this is my focus, I find that it is easier for me to accept our disagreements and that I can excercise greater discernment as to when it is beneficial to air them. And, when I do air my disagreements, often I find that my more conservative Christian friends are far more tolerant than I might have given them credit for.

But, I don't know that I would have been able to come to this point when I was 22. A lot has happened to me in the last 9 years that has drastically changed the way I view myself and God. At that point in my life, I was not at all interested in having a relationship with Christ; in fact, I found myself rather annoyed by Christians. To some extent, a fair amount of rebellion is completely normal at this phase of life. But, in our culture, I believe that this phase of life is especially precarious, because there are a lot of people with a lot of good sounding ideas. So, I think that community is especially important in helping us to sort through these various ideas.

Personally, I would rather see a person plugged in to a liberal congregation of the church than no congregation at all. But, then again, (and I know this is a point of disagreement between us) I don't see liberalism as any more or less consistent with Scripture than conservatism. I have radical disagreements with both perspectives, but that is a subject for another thread I suppose.

 

[Nadiine]

I don't know how this becomes a liberal/conservative discussion. But, honestly, if her issue is with certain strains of conservatism, I can't say that I blame her. I go to a church that is, by and large, considerably more conservative than I am. For a while, I really struggled with this, because, among some of the members, there seemed to be an unspoken understanding that, if you disagreed with them in their theology or politics, then you must disagree with the Bible. But, the more I actually turned to Scripture, instead of other people, the more I found myself disagreeing with these same people.

It doesn't become a lib/cons. discussion until we find out the SOURCE
of the problem she's airing.
HOnestly, she's given little to no detailed information on this
and we're left grappling in the dark for specifics to be able to respond
appropriately.

I finally just resorted to delving in with possible speculations as to
what her specific complaint is - what are these people like; what do
they believe? Are they off base and making wrongful judgments
by appearance? Or are they actually giving sound spiritual advice
that she's rejecting due to her own worldview where she shuts them out?

I didn't say that's what this was, I was searching to see what it might
be due to lack of specifics we've been given.

Even after I made those detailed posts, I have STILL been given little in reply. So, truthfully, I'm about done trying to figure it out or caring about it - maybe she doesn't care about it herself for all I know.

It's real easy to come here and attack all those "bad Christians" and appear like you're the good guy... or try to get people on your side,
(not that she's doing that - just that I see it often)
but until we know what these people are actually saying or doing, it's just random attack with no purpose other than it makes another stain on Christianity to the public who reads it.
(which is a major pet pieve of mine if anybody hasn't noticed).

Eventually, I had to come to the point of being comfortable with what I believe that God had revealed to me through Scripture and with who God had created me to be. When I came to this point, suddenly those disagreements didn't seem to be such deal breakers. Rather, I learned that what is more important than any bit of doctrine is that I learn to love and serve other people. When this is my focus, I find that it is easier for me to accept our disagreements and that I can excercise greater discernment as to when it is beneficial to air them. And, when I do air my disagreements, often I find that my more conservative Christian friends are far more tolerant than I might have given them credit for.

Any Christian who's honest will be able to admit there's problems
and errors in the church body - the issue is if the complaints are
actually accurate and fair.
Oftentimes I see people who are just having a rebellious spell and want
to lash out at Conservative Christians - God or the church.
To me, they lack any credibility and I'll go after them becuz I see an agenda to wipe good people's faces in the mud for sport.

When people who claim God start doing Satan's work, I'll take a stand
against it for what it is. (and pray God can work in their heart to
change their spirit).

When there's legitimate complaint, I think most conservative Christians
are honest. The majority of the ones I know have been anyways.
I'd only hope that you have equal complaint that isn't ALWAYS at
conservativism - if so, that says alot in and of itself.

Personally, I would rather see a person plugged in to a liberal congregation of the church than no congregation at all. But, then again, (and I know this is a point of disagreement between us) I don't see liberalism as any more or less consistent with Scripture than conservatism. I have radical disagreements with both perspectives, but that is a subject for another thread I suppose.

And imho, you say this becuz you lean towards liberalism yourself which is
why I believe we often disagree w/ one another.

I think they're better off in no congregation than one of those.
Thankfully we have a God who can work ALL things for good if
someone is able to be saved. He can use a good or bad scenario for His
glory. That is what I rest in becuz He is able to reach anyone if
they will hear Him and submit.

 

[dies-l]

And imho, you say this becuz you lean towards liberalism yourself which is
why I believe we often disagree w/ one another.

It's funny how all my liberal friends think that I am incredibly conservative, and all my conservative friends think that I am incredibly liberal. I think that if you looked at the totality of what I believe, you would see a worldview that is neither liberal nor conservative, but you are entitled to your opinion. Sadly, our society has become simplistic in its way of thinking, that we often do not know how to think outside of the liberal/conservative dichotamy.

 

[elephunky]

Why does everything have to be liberal or conservative?

 

[dies-l]

Why does everything have to be liberal or conservative?

My point exactly? There is a common, yet overly simplistic notion that, if you are not a conservative, you are a liberal, and if you are not a liberal, you are a conservative. It does make things easier if we can throw a label at people we disagree with. Unfortunately, when we do so, we are often incorrect and end up only complicating things.

 

[rcorlew]

Being a Christian for 20 years, I do know many things for certain as detailed in the Bible and these are the Gospel, the message that disciples of Christ are to follow they are for the most part but not the entire list these truths:

Without accepting God's plan of salvation through Christ there is no salvation
You must truly seek out God
You must pick up your cross daily (die to the worldly ways that bind you to death)
Seek God's guidance to ensure you are on His path and not your own
God will perfect you in building His Kingdom

That is Christianity in a nutshell. Now you undoubtedly will come across other Christians who may have slightly different views about "thou shall nots" and trivial things like that, but as long as they believe the list above they are a Christian and Paul admonishes us in causing rifts within our faith that if discussing them becomes a stumbling block then we are not to even discuss the differences of opinion as long as they truly are Cristian, we should merely encourage to stay with their first love that is of course God.

This does not apply to those who teach outside of the Gospel of Christ, they are false prophets and we cannot allow them to lead souls to destruction. How sad it is that Catholics and Baptists and Pentecostals all agree on the list but would rather pick on each other and let people like Oprah and her Universalism hogwash slip through the cracks. It truly makes me sad to know that I know that souls are at stake and Christ's disciples are fighting amongst themselves while the fox is in the hen house.

I truly pray that we unite and carry the yoke that Jesus wants us to carry for it is easy to bear, and leads to life, not just ours but those around us who we bring this great Message to. I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ and cannot wait until we all cast our crowns at His feet!

 

[Nadiine]

Why does everything have to be liberal or conservative?

first off, becuz it often IS.

Secondly, if you took time to read my post, I said that since
you give us NO detail, I had to go on a fishing expedition to TRY
to find out information for this topic.

It isn't enough - and it isn't fair to sit & attack Christians
who you refuse to give detail about.

I could easily ask why does everything have to be about
attacking other Chrisitans? That's about prevalent around CF
too.

If you guys are going to get a hair bent out of shape, I'd
suggest you REREAD my post again than to form a
lynch mob in ignorance

 

[Nadiine]

My point exactly? There is a common, yet overly simplistic notion that, if you are not a conservative, you are a liberal, and if you are not a liberal, you are a conservative. It does make things easier if we can throw a label at people we disagree with. Unfortunately, when we do so, we are often incorrect and end up only complicating things.

your point would be well taken if you saw the reason for the post,
and that it wasn't an emphatic statement, IT WAS IN SEARCH OF
INFORMATION which we are not getting.

Instead, it's more acceptable to sit & listen to someone bash
a group of Christians who can't speak for themselves in any
defense.
It's usually wise to get BOTH sides of the story before accepting
someone's attack or criticism of them.
I see that alot here at CF too. I don't just take everyone's word
for it and I don't think anyone should.

If she's going to make critical statements against other Christians,
she should give us detail on it in fairness don't you think?

I do get tired of the rush to go after people.

 

[Nadiine]

It's funny how all my liberal friends think that I am incredibly conservative, and all my conservative friends think that I am incredibly liberal. I think that if you looked at the totality of what I believe, you would see a worldview that is neither liberal nor conservative, but you are entitled to your opinion. Sadly, our society has become simplistic in its way of thinking, that we often do not know how to think outside of the liberal/conservative dichotamy.

there is such a thing as moderate/centrist which float
between the two.

But the key is what we're accepting spiritually. I'm considered liberal
to legalists, it doesn't make me liberal.
Alot depends on one's understanding of scripture (and IF they're
actually a born again Christian).

And I'm sorry to have to break it to you, liberal and conservative
war against one another when either side is firmly embraced.
You see this proven in the liberal forum and in the fundamental/
conservative forums even here.

I know it of my conservative Christian friends and family that
there's a war going on btwn the 2. America is divided and fighting
over this currently.
And due to the worldviews that so drastically refute scripture, there SHOULD be a division going on spiritually. The bible calls us to
divide from that, not embrace it.
That's where the moderate and conservative find their disagreement.

Moderates will straddle the fence and try to accept both sides positively
and share some agreement with both parties opinions or points, Conservatives make a dividing line and cannot/will not comingle.
(that's obviously a generality that not everyone fully fits into
in every subject/situation, but that's how I view it from
observing it for this many years).

I'd also note that just becuz you're more of a moderate/centrist,
that it doesn't necessarily make YOUR position the RIGHT position
either. You assume it is becuz it's the view you hold.

 

[dies-l]

there is such a thing as moderate/centrist which float
between the two.

But the key is what we're accepting spiritually. I'm considered liberal
to legalists, it doesn't make me liberal.
Alot depends on one's understanding of scripture (and IF they're
actually a born again Christian).

And I'm sorry to have to break it to you, liberal and conservative
war against one another when either side is firmly embraced.
You see this proven in the liberal forum and in the fundamental/
conservative forums even here.

I know it of my conservative Christian friends and family that
there's a war going on btwn the 2. America is divided and fighting
over this currently.
And due to the worldviews that so drastically refute scripture, there SHOULD be a division going on spiritually. The bible calls us to
divide from that, not embrace it.
That's where the moderate and conservative find their disagreement.

Moderates will straddle the fence and try to accept both sides positively
and share some agreement with both parties opinions or points, Conservatives make a dividing line and cannot/will not comingle.
(that's obviously a generality that not everyone fully fits into
in every subject/situation, but that's how I view it from
observing it for this many years).

It sense here some misconseptions about what it means to be a moderate. I will use that term for simplicity's sake, because I think it works reasonably well in my case. It sounds like you assume that moderates (and I don't know if you use the term "centrist" as synonomous with moderate) take the middle ground out of a "let's just agree with everyone and be happy" sort of head in the sand mentality. In my case, that could not be farther from the truth. If anything, I find that being a "moderate" often puts significantly me at odds with people at both of the extremes. The reality is that I have fundamental disagreements with both liberalism and conservatism. Sometimes these disagreements come down to the fact that given positions on each side are wholly reactionary, not based on Scripture or reason, but rather on an emotional reaction to the opposite extreme. More often, however, I find that I have a worldview that is wholly inconsistent with the worldviews of the two extremes. It is not simply a matter of I like some liberal ideas and some conservative ideas, and I just want everyone to be happy (although, that would be nice). Rather, my opinions are shaped by a worldview that differs from both liberalism and conservatism, but that sometimes causes me to agree with liberals on one issue, sometimes with conservatives, and sometimes with neither.

I suppose that this is made all the more confusing, because we assume that liberalism and conservatism are the only two extremes (basic worldviews). My experience has been that there are at least four different types of worldviews that shape the politics and theology of most Americans. I would identify these as liberal, conservative, libertarian (although, these are often, wrongly I believe, lumped with conservatives), and a fourth perspective that I would call "communitarianism" for lack of a better term (by this, I refer to a view point that is roughly opposite libertarianism). Libertarians often look like liberals in some of their opinions (emphasis on individual liberties), but look very conservative in other opinions (emphasis on low taxes, minimal social programs). "Communitarians" also sometimes look liberal (emphasis on social programs to care for the neediest members of the community) and also sometimes look conservative (high emphasis on morality and individuals' obligations to the community as a whole).

I'd also note that just becuz you're more of a moderate/centrist,
that it doesn't necessarily make YOUR position the RIGHT position
either. You assume it is becuz it's the view you hold.

I agree. Just like everyone else, I have a lot yet to learn. Unfortunately, we all tend to fall into the trap sometimes of thinking that our viewpoint is objectively best.

 

[Nadiine]

It sense here some misconseptions about what it means to be a moderate. I will use that term for simplicity's sake, because I think it works reasonably well in my case. It sounds like you assume that moderates (and I don't know if you use the term "centrist" as synonomous with moderate) take the middle ground out of a "let's just agree with everyone and be happy" sort of head in the sand mentality. In my case, that could not be farther from the truth. If anything, I find that being a "moderate" often puts significantly me at odds with people at both of the extremes. The reality is that I have fundamental disagreements with both liberalism and conservatism. Sometimes these disagreements come down to the fact that given positions on each side are wholly reactionary, not based on Scripture or reason, but rather on an emotional reaction to the opposite extreme. More often, however, I find that I have a worldview that is wholly inconsistent with the worldviews of the two extremes. It is not simply a matter of I like some liberal ideas and some conservative ideas, and I just want everyone to be happy (although, that would be nice). Rather, my opinions are shaped by a worldview that differs from both liberalism and conservatism, but that sometimes causes me to agree with liberals on one issue, sometimes with conservatives, and sometimes with neither.

I suppose that this is made all the more confusing, because we assume that liberalism and conservatism are the only two extremes (basic worldviews). My experience has been that there are at least four different types of worldviews that shape the politics and theology of most Americans. I would identify these as liberal, conservative, libertarian (although, these are often, wrongly I believe, lumped with conservatives), and a fourth perspective that I would call "communitarianism" for lack of a better term (by this, I refer to a view point that is roughly opposite libertarianism). Libertarians often look like liberals in some of their opinions (emphasis on individual liberties), but look very conservative in other opinions (emphasis on low taxes, minimal social programs). "Communitarians" also sometimes look liberal (emphasis on social programs to care for the neediest members of the community) and also sometimes look conservative (high emphasis on morality and individuals' obligations to the community as a whole).



I agree. Just like everyone else, I have a lot yet to learn. Unfortunately, we all tend to fall into the trap sometimes of thinking that our viewpoint is objectively best.

Well we all have alot to learn - just that a Christian is to hold to
biblical principle and apply that to their lifestyles; it's supposed to
directly affect our worldview and subsequent conduct.
For me, I don't see how a Christian CANNOT be "conservative"
at least in the moral sense.
(unless those 'christians' decide the bible isn't relevant as
spiritual guidance for whatever the reasons).

The trick is probly how you incorporate that into a secular, immoral
society.

Since the top paragraph can get SO lengthy in details
and concepts (and is basically off topic), all I'd say is that I agree that it's alot more complex than the simple black & white I'm painting it into.
liberal/moderate/conservative is oversimplified and there are
varying degrees of each - and some depends on the definitions
of the terms and in who sees what according to their own
position in that list.

I'm considered more liberal than John Hagee, yet I agree w/ most all
the principles he teaches. I'm more relaxed w/ our liberties in Christ
than other Christians are - and vice versa, many are more liberal
than I am w/ liberties that I think are bad for us.

The real issue imo is how we view sin as a self proclaiming Christian -
which depends very much on our view of the Bible itself.

My key issue is that if the Bible says that those who live in the
continual practice of a host of specific moral sins cannot
inherit God's kingdom, then to ignore it and live that way & claim
Christianity is a bit of an issue.
Conservatives across the board recognize these sins as they're
listed and are in agreement with that, and they also don't
promote or accept it.

Those to me, are sensitive and serious issues. But, now
I'm getting sidetracked into specifics lol. sorry.

 

[dies-l]

Well we all have alot to learn - just that a Christian is to hold to
biblical principle and apply that to their lifestyles; it's supposed to
directly affect our worldview and subsequent conduct.
For me, I don't see how a Christian CANNOT be "conservative"
at least in the moral sense.
(unless those 'christians' decide the bible isn't relevant as
spiritual guidance for whatever the reasons).

The trick is probly how you incorporate that into a secular, immoral
society.

Since the top paragraph can get SO lengthy in details
and concepts (and is basically off topic), all I'd say is that I agree that it's alot more complex than the simple black & white I'm painting it into.
liberal/moderate/conservative is oversimplified and there are
varying degrees of each - and some depends on the definitions
of the terms and in who sees what according to their own
position in that list.

I'm considered more liberal than John Hagee, yet I agree w/ most all
the principles he teaches. I'm more relaxed w/ our liberties in Christ
than other Christians are - and vice versa, many are more liberal
than I am w/ liberties that I think are bad for us.

The real issue imo is how we view sin as a self proclaiming Christian -
which depends very much on our view of the Bible itself.

My key issue is that if the Bible says that those who live in the
continual practice of a host of specific moral sins cannot
inherit God's kingdom, then to ignore it and live that way & claim
Christianity is a bit of an issue.
Conservatives across the board recognize these sins as they're
listed and are in agreement with that, and they also don't
promote or accept it.

Those to me, are sensitive and serious issues. But, now
I'm getting sidetracked into specifics lol. sorry.

I must say that, even though I probably disagree with you at least as much as I agree with you, I have found some of our conversations lately to be quite insightful.

The only comment that I would like to make regarding your post is that I think that we all tend to think that the Bible most completely supports our worldview. (I sometimes tend to think that the Bible clearly supports "communitarian" thinking over other worldviews.) Conversations such as these can help us to identify the biases (liberal, conservative, moderate, etc.) that we bring to our understanding of Scripture. Obviously some biases are stronger than others, but we all have them.

 

[elephunky]

I did give detail nadiine, time to go back and read my posts