Is it really a choice?

[elephunky]

to which one to you lol

lol

 

[Rick Otto]

I didn't hear a thing you said in your last post, anyway...
...because I didn't see it until I was done composing & posting.

whatever.
I'm chill.
I gotta check out tho.
You go, girl.
I think you're just fine.

 

[Nadiine]

Its not that i care what other people think, its the fact I have people telling me who I should be, how I should be acting, what I should like etc. Im not one for trying to fit in, i like being different, I like being an individual. As far as im concerned if people dont like it then just dontt alk to me. Which doesnt work well in church and christian groups now does it?

Maybe you wouldn't of fit in in the early churches at all either?

There are SOME Christians who make false demands on other
Christians by demanding they obey their opinions about morality
or God rather than what the Bible actually teaches.

In THOSE cases, we all defy what a stiff, phariseeical type of
person demands.
However, if you're bucking traditional Christianity, then you have
scripture and early church example working against you and
I'd have to say you're incorrect in demanding to be set apart
from what Christianity defines itself as (via scripture tenets).

You can't point to Christians as being overbearing and legalistic
when they tell you fornication is sin - or you cannot just live
with a boyfriend, or cussing is wrong or you need to go to church, etc.

They're biblically correct and it's YOU who is in rebellion to
Christianity as its defined in God's word.

Now if people are telling you that you have to get to church
on Saturday, can't eat certain meat/food/drink, can't dance,
can't listen to secular music, can't socially drink, etc. etc.
then you have definite merit in your rejection of Christian
opinion.

From what I've read of your posts, I see a rebellion to standard
Christianity to hold a more unorthodox view and make your decisions
based more on personal opinion/feeling than what scripture says
(which makes sense since in another post you said you don't
accept scripture authority or inerrancy).

So since you reject the Bible's teachings, I can see why you
hold your views. I just cannot agree with them becuz the bible
is the "handbook" for Christianity and defines Christianity itself.
It makes the claims by those who walked with God/Christ
in person and offers accurate prophecy for the future which
noone could know outside of supernatural enlightenment.

Anyone who claims a religion and then rejects their holy books
(those who set the standard & definition of the religion), are
in my opinion, following their own self made religion, not the
religion defined by the founders/writers/leaders/spokespersons).

 

[Poverello78]

Thank you for the compliments, Rick. I don't have any training, if you were asking seriously--well, very little at least. I had some basic training in international missions and humanitarian work. Most of what I've learned has been just from my own personal experience, paired with the natural gifts I believe God has given me to grasp ideas well and relate to others; These things all really interest me and have since I was a kid.

My own faults, which have put me through hell, have forced me to face some harsh realities. I've been through drug rehab (and not long ago) which taught me a lot about emotions, relationships, etc. It's also helped give me structure to many free-floating things I already understood.

 

[Poverello78]

First - lol

Secondly - The negative feeligns I have about this is not about me wanting to be accepted in their eyes, I dont wanna fit in with them. I want them to say, thats Donna, and leave me alone. Im tired of people telling me how I should be all the tiemand expect me to have a personlaity transplant just cos its what they want. they EXPECT. And waht annoys me the most is a majority of them are Christians, not non christians, christians.

Its not like im a rapist that beleives in god and knows she needs to change but wont. If i needed to change, id be talking to God about it.

Circumstance? what circumstance are we referring to here? the bit where im minding my own business and someone comes alonga nd tries to turn me into what they think i should be?

You see, I could think of a hundred reasons to be offended by the fact that your first response to me was "lol"; I could also point out that, by laughing at me you are acting in the same manner as the people you complain about. However, I don't take it personally and, therefore, I don't suffer or cause suffering. I understand where you're coming from and so it doesn't offend me. Do you see the point?

The bit I was explaining about 'circumstances' can be said as simply as this: Allowing our circumstances to dictate our happiness is horribly destructive in all ways and on all levels of being.

There is a saying that "the only thing we can control is ourselves", and this is absolutely true (regardless of the manipulation factor). In this particular discussion, the circumstance you can't control is other people. Now consider this for a moment, if you will: This discussion is about how you are upset because of how others have been treating you; But when you become upset because others don't treat you the way you want them to, you're not only throwing your ow peace of mind to the winds, but you're also completely missing an opportunity for love, understanding, and forgiveness. You are allowing your circumstances to control you and send you into a very painful position.

I recall a friend of mine telling me a story about a man who had been wronged in some way or another and became angry about it. Another man, who was wise, came to him and said "Why are you angry?", and the man replied "Because I was wronged in this way." The wise friend then said, "Ok, but why are you angry?" A truth was soon realized that the manifestation of anger at a circumstance is not at all the fault of the circumstance but of the person who is angry, and that blaming circumstances for how we feel is nothing but pride and a victimization of oneself. Once you understand this, it's easy to see that (as I tried to explain before) the people who pass judgment on you are in actuality only doing so because they are trying to find something to blame for their own personal issues.

I know that you probably posted this with the expectation of either an argument (which, in reality, is usually only a searching out of reasons to blame more circumstances for how you feel and react), or to find solace in other angry people who couldn't agree more, or both; But I have no desire to agree with you that certain people are lame and that you ought to be upset. The truth is, we're all lame and are therefore hypocrites when we become upset about the choices of others.

I have a lot more in mind to write, but I know this is a forum and I don't want to keep anyone up all night reading one post. Just bear in mind that trials are supposed to be considered blessings; They are the catalyst by which our character can grow--even an atheist would agree to that.

 

[Rick Otto]

Thank you for the compliments, Rick. I don't have any training, if you were asking seriously--well, very little at least. I had some basic training in international missions and humanitarian work. Most of what I've learned has been just from my own personal experience, paired with the natural gifts I believe God has given me to grasp ideas well and relate to others; These things all really interest me and have since I was a kid.

My own faults, which have put me through hell, have forced me to face some harsh realities. I've been through drug rehab (and not long ago) which taught me a lot about emotions, relationships, etc. It's also helped give me structure to many free-floating things I already understood.

Cool. Then you're human, like me.
We might get along.

 

[Rick Otto]

"Ok, but why are you angry?"

Way cool; Emotional intelligence.

I understand where you're coming from and so it doesn't offend me.

And not understanding where a person is coming from is a good reason not to take it so personaly that I get offended, too.
Sometimes the omly reason I laugh is to keep from crying.
On the other hand, being incommunicative can be passively hostile.
If I don't wish to be taken that way, I explain myself.

You are allowing your circumstances to control you and send you into a very painful position.

While this is true to a degree, I would assert that we have to let circumstances dictate our response to a certain degree as well.
Also, while not being careful not to advocate masochism or a "persecution complex", pain signals a need for change & shouldn't be avoided at al costs (not that you were advocating that).
I mention this because I sometimes am irritated at my own complacency and seek the pain of identity crises for the sake of growth. Faith untested is hard to value.

Good conversation.

 

[elephunky]

You see, I could think of a hundred reasons to be offended by the fact that your first response to me was "lol"; I could also point out that, by laughing at me you are acting in the same manner as the people you complain about. However, I don't take it personally and, therefore, I don't suffer or cause suffering. I understand where you're coming from and so it doesn't offend me. Do you see the point?

The bit I was explaining about 'circumstances' can be said as simply as this: Allowing our circumstances to dictate our happiness is horribly destructive in all ways and on all levels of being.

There is a saying that "the only thing we can control is ourselves", and this is absolutely true (regardless of the manipulation factor). In this particular discussion, the circumstance you can't control is other people. Now consider this for a moment, if you will: This discussion is about how you are upset because of how others have been treating you; But when you become upset because others don't treat you the way you want them to, you're not only throwing your ow peace of mind to the winds, but you're also completely missing an opportunity for love, understanding, and forgiveness. You are allowing your circumstances to control you and send you into a very painful position.

I recall a friend of mine telling me a story about a man who had been wronged in some way or another and became angry about it. Another man, who was wise, came to him and said "Why are you angry?", and the man replied "Because I was wronged in this way." The wise friend then said, "Ok, but why are you angry?" A truth was soon realized that the manifestation of anger at a circumstance is not at all the fault of the circumstance but of the person who is angry, and that blaming circumstances for how we feel is nothing but pride and a victimization of oneself. Once you understand this, it's easy to see that (as I tried to explain before) the people who pass judgment on you are in actuality only doing so because they are trying to find something to blame for their own personal issues.

I know that you probably posted this with the expectation of either an argument (which, in reality, is usually only a searching out of reasons to blame more circumstances for how you feel and react), or to find solace in other angry people who couldn't agree more, or both; But I have no desire to agree with you that certain people are lame and that you ought to be upset. The truth is, we're all lame and are therefore hypocrites when we become upset about the choices of others.

I have a lot more in mind to write, but I know this is a forum and I don't want to keep anyone up all night reading one post. Just bear in mind that trials are supposed to be considered blessings; They are the catalyst by which our character can grow--even an atheist would agree to that.

The only think i chose to say to you is this - I said lol because you were spitting out the same stuff, even tho i told you that was not hte case.

 

[Nadiine]

Its not that i care what other people think, its the fact I have people telling me who I should be, how I should be acting, what I should like etc. Im not one for trying to fit in, i like being different,

If you break this statement down to it's source,
it looks like your focus isn't on what GOD wants, but what
you want people to see is different about you....

the focus we're to have as Christians, is to be on GOD and if He's
pleased with us - our relationship w/ Him and obedience.

It looks to me like you view traditional obedience to God's teachings
is boring and stuffy - like in the Amish realm or something,
and you don't want to be like the other 'sheep' drones???
Most likely you don't want others seeing you like one of those
"typical Christians"... you're one of the "kool" ones that don't
act like the rest.

If this is how you view things, I'd say to reevaluate Christianity
altogether and make God and His principles the focal point &
ignore other people (traditional or otherwise).
His principles ARE "traditional" and morally conservative; to be rebelling
against that I think is a huge misjudgment & misrepresentation
of the faith.

I don't look like a typical conservative, I like stylish clothes, have a
high heel shoe obsession, am fine with social drinking, think gambling
is fine in moderation if you have some $ to leisurely enjoy & can
quit when it's time to quit, don't think you have people have to be
at church 24/7, etc. etc. We CAN be "different" and 'hip' while we obey the
Lord, we don't have to compromise with liberalism to be
contemporary Christians.

 

[dies-l]

Oh you know, my taste in music, my taste in movies, my taste in humor, pretty much my taste in everything. The part of me that is a bit of a rocker, the part of me that likes tattoos and piercings, the part of me that can have fun with a bunch of drunk people without being drunk, the part of me that is happy to let people chose waht they want to believe, and all thsoe interesting parts of me.

I understand where you are coming from on this. There certainly are some people in the Church who act as though once you become a Christian, you need to listen to only Christian music, you need to pretend that Kirk Cameron is a good actor and that you enjoy "Christian" movies, and that you can't hang out with "sinners". Personally, I doubt that Jesus would be much of a fan of most of the "Christian" entertainment that is out there. And, we know from Scripture that he spent a good deal of his time hanging out with sinners. I would only encourage you to be careful that you let God, rather than your friends or entertainment, guide your moral and spiritual life.

Its not that i care what other people think, its the fact I have people telling me who I should be, how I should be acting, what I should like etc. Im not one for trying to fit in, i like being different, I like being an individual. As far as im concerned if people dont like it then just dontt alk to me. Which doesnt work well in church and christian groups now does it?

Of course you care what other people think. We all do to some extent or another. But, part of living in community with other people (whether it be in the Church or in any other community), is learning to be around people who rub us the wrong way. You will always encounter people who say or do things that you find aggravating or just disagreeable. But, I will also say that at 22, this is made worse by the fact that you are in a phase of life during which you are trying to establish your role as an adult. Young adulthood (or late adolescence, according the modern developmental lingo) is a tricky time, and it doesn't help that you get a million and one different people telling what kind of person you ought to be. Ultimately, you have to work that one out for yourself. I would encourage you, however, not to turn away from Christian communty (i.e., the Church) during that process, as learning to live with and love disagreeable people (of whom the Church has plenty) is an important part of growing healthy spiritually as a Christian.

 

[Nadiine]

I understand where you are coming from on this. There certainly are some people in the Church who act as though once you become a Christian, you need to listen to only Christian music, you need to pretend that Kirk Cameron is a good actor and that you enjoy "Christian" movies, and that you can't hang out with "sinners". Personally, I doubt that Jesus would be much of a fan of most of the "Christian" entertainment that is out there. And, we know from Scripture that he spent a good deal of his time hanging out with sinners. I would only encourage you to be careful that you let God, rather than your friends or entertainment, guide your moral and spiritual life.

What you're describing here is more like legalism.
Fundamentalists are not necessary legalists (most of the fundamentalists
I know aren't).

Legalists are more judgmental about the liberties we have in
our religion and think if you don't fit into their mold, then you
must not be a Christian or love God.

But when it comes to sin, that is not legalism to say so.
Legalism is a condition of heart imo.
2 people can correct someone when they see a sin (or call
sin what it is):
John the Baptist rebuked the King for committing adultery.
The Pharisees pointed out sin, but in their hearts, they felt
better than everyone else and were self righteous in it.

While they were both right about what sin was, both weren't legalists.

Aside from that, I'd also add that the more carnality we take in in our relationships, media & entertainment, the more it DOES affect our spirituality in a negative direction. It does affect our spirituality whether
we'll admit it or not. I know that becuz of my own experience
with backsliding several times before.

That is why that mentality occurs in the more legalist types of
Christians when they see people routinely doing what leads to
snares and trouble. It makes them think a person isn't closely
walking w/ the Lord; becuz those things slowly dissrupt a close walk
with God.
(that's where their point of view comes from).

And I also think it's important to point out that while the more
"liberal" people who claim Christ are so angry at being judged
by 'fundy' types of Christians, they are equally judgmental
against the 'fundys' just the same.

So I see it reciprocated in most cases

 

[Poverello78]

The only think i chose to say to you is this - I said lol because you were spitting out the same stuff, even tho i told you that was not hte case.

If you don't mind discussing it further with me, I'd like to ask, what exactly is "not the case"?

 

[dies-l]

What you're describing here is more like legalism.
Fundamentalists are not necessary legalists (most of the fundamentalists
I know aren't).

Legalists are more judgmental about the liberties we have in
our religion and think if you don't fit into their mold, then you
must not be a Christian or love God.

But when it comes to sin, that is not legalism to say so.
Legalism is a condition of heart imo.
2 people can correct someone when they see a sin (or call
sin what it is):
John the Baptist rebuked the King for committing adultery.
The Pharisees pointed out sin, but in their hearts, they felt
better than everyone else and were self righteous in it.

While they were both right about what sin was, both weren't legalists.

Aside from that, I'd also add that the more carnality we take in in our relationships, media & entertainment, the more it DOES affect our spirituality in a negative direction. It does affect our spirituality whether
we'll admit it or not. I know that becuz of my own experience
with backsliding several times before.

That is why that mentality occurs in the more legalist types of
Christians when they see people routinely doing what leads to
snares and trouble. It makes them think a person isn't closely
walking w/ the Lord; becuz those things slowly dissrupt a close walk
with God.
(that's where their point of view comes from).

And I also think it's important to point out that while the more
"liberal" people who claim Christ are so angry at being judged
by 'fundy' types of Christians, they are equally judgmental
against the 'fundys' just the same.

So I see it reciprocated in most cases

I am not quite sure how you got from my post that I was speaking about "fundamentalists." Honestly, I have run across both liberals and conservatives who are equally legalistic and judgmental. So, I would not disagree with you there. But, I sensed (perhaps incorrectly) that the poster was not expressing irritation about liberal legalists, and so my comments to her so reflected.

 

[Nadiine]

I am not quite sure how you got from my post that I was speaking about "fundamentalists." Honestly, I have run across both liberals and conservatives who are equally legalistic and judgmental. So, I would not disagree with you there. But, I sensed (perhaps incorrectly) that the poster was not expressing irritation about liberal legalists, and so my comments to her so reflected.

I think she's been speaking about fundamentalists (or even conservatives)
that try to get her to be like them which is what "Christianity" is.

When you replied, I thought that's what you were speaking to - which it looks
like that's what you were doing, but. . I thought my post properly replied
to what your statements were.

Maybe we're just not on the same pages? lol
Or maybe my post just didn't seem to fit your points - I tend
to be a windbag; thinking out loud & going beyond the basic
points into other things. (carrying thoughts thru further than
I need to... but after like 12 yrs of discuss/debate, it's ended up
saving me further explanations later, or it starts new convo's in
other ways & sometimes sparks more dialog about other concepts).

=)~

 

[elephunky]

If you break this statement down to it's source,
it looks like your focus isn't on what GOD wants, but what
you want people to see is different about you....

the focus we're to have as Christians, is to be on GOD and if He's
pleased with us - our relationship w/ Him and obedience.

It looks to me like you view traditional obedience to God's teachings
is boring and stuffy - like in the Amish realm or something,
and you don't want to be like the other 'sheep' drones???
Most likely you don't want others seeing you like one of those
"typical Christians"... you're one of the "kool" ones that don't
act like the rest.

If this is how you view things, I'd say to reevaluate Christianity
altogether and make God and His principles the focal point &
ignore other people (traditional or otherwise).
His principles ARE "traditional" and morally conservative; to be rebelling
against that I think is a huge misjudgment & misrepresentation
of the faith.

I don't look like a typical conservative, I like stylish clothes, have a
high heel shoe obsession, am fine with social drinking, think gambling
is fine in moderation if you have some $ to leisurely enjoy & can
quit when it's time to quit, don't think you have people have to be
at church 24/7, etc. etc. We CAN be "different" and 'hip' while we obey the
Lord, we don't have to compromise with liberalism to be
contemporary Christians.

/sigh

should I even bother responding to this? Because no one seems to be getting the point, im saying the same thing over and over but everyone is intererpating it the way they want to, not really hearing what im saying.

 

[elephunky]

I understand where you are coming from on this. There certainly are some people in the Church who act as though once you become a Christian, you need to listen to only Christian music, you need to pretend that Kirk Cameron is a good actor and that you enjoy "Christian" movies, and that you can't hang out with "sinners". Personally, I doubt that Jesus would be much of a fan of most of the "Christian" entertainment that is out there. And, we know from Scripture that he spent a good deal of his time hanging out with sinners. I would only encourage you to be careful that you let God, rather than your friends or entertainment, guide your moral and spiritual life.



Of course you care what other people think. We all do to some extent or another. But, part of living in community with other people (whether it be in the Church or in any other community), is learning to be around people who rub us the wrong way. You will always encounter people who say or do things that you find aggravating or just disagreeable. But, I will also say that at 22, this is made worse by the fact that you are in a phase of life during which you are trying to establish your role as an adult. Young adulthood (or late adolescence, according the modern developmental lingo) is a tricky time, and it doesn't help that you get a million and one different people telling what kind of person you ought to be. Ultimately, you have to work that one out for yourself. I would encourage you, however, not to turn away from Christian communty (i.e., the Church) during that process, as learning to live with and love disagreeable people (of whom the Church has plenty) is an important part of growing healthy spiritually as a Christian.

Thanks for your post.

Its not as if ive just become a christian or anything, ive been a christian since i was in year 8, and ive been around these people the whole time. I am who I ought to be, but to them its not good enough, and im tired of it. I love these people, I know they think they are helping but they arent, to avoid bitterness I minimise my contact with them.

 

[elephunky]

If you don't mind discussing it further with me, I'd like to ask, what exactly is "not the case"?

Like ive said before, its simply a case of me being tired of others telling me how to be, Im not looking for approval from them. I dont aspire to fit in, you get to a point where you think, whats the point of being with these people when they are trying to change me into what they think I should be.

 

[Nadiine]

Like ive said before, its simply a case of me being tired of others telling me how to be, Im not looking for approval from them. I dont aspire to fit in, you get to a point where you think, whats the point of being with these people when they are trying to change me into what they think I should be.

Honestly dGirl, I think you're looking at this in the wrong perspective;
it looks to be secular.

I think you shut out anyone who isn't liberal enough and think they
just want you to be a clone of THEM as if it's about them and their
baseless rigid rules.

A Christian who sees you (or anyone) doing/proposing what God says is wrong, is SUPPOSED to warn you & tell you that isn't appropriate or
pleasing to God.
So if you don't want to live that way & disbelieve it, you seem to try
to silence them & complain that they're personally the problem.
Did you ever stop to think that they're correct in relaying to you
what God says and you're just in rebellion to it?
Since I already know that you've said you don't accept that the
Bible is authoratative and God's inerrant word to man, you've made
the bible relative to what you want it to say, so when people
tell you what it says, you reject it & blame them for being
fundamental extremists (or whatever your term is). . .

Unless you get into liberal churches (which I never advise),
you won't hear what you want Christianity to be.
that's what I gather from your posts.

 

[dies-l]

Thanks for your post.

Its not as if ive just become a christian or anything, ive been a christian since i was in year 8, and ive been around these people the whole time. I am who I ought to be, but to them its not good enough, and im tired of it. I love these people, I know they think they are helping but they arent, to avoid bitterness I minimise my contact with them.

No matter where we are in our Christian journey, we always need help. Being a Christian at 8 years old is a drastically different experience than being a Christian at 22, which is different than your experience will be at 31, which I assume is different than it will be at 50, and so forth. I wish you the best in that journey, and I pray that you will have (if you do not already) have a supportive community of believers along with you on that journey.

 

[elephunky]

/sigh

As ive said in earlier posts, its not as if Im committing crimes against god and they are pulling me up on it.

I didnt say that I dont accept the Bible, I just find myself questioning it our ability to rely on it and our putting it first before a relationship with God.

I got judgemental looks and avoided once because I wore a black blouse and black pants to church.