Is it really a choice?

elephunky · Mar 9, 2009

Nadiine said:
I assumed she meant drugs like cocaine, heroine, pot,
ecstacy, crack, etc.

Actually, some of those drugs were originally used for medicinal purposes.

one11 · Mar 9, 2009

Zecryphon said:
Okay, I'm armed with Lexapro, Vicodin, Valium, Klonopin, Xanax, Naproxen and Hydrocodone. Granted I only take the Lexapro, Vicodin, Klonopin and Naproxen, now. But I have the others from a couple of years ago. What are you bringing to this fight?

Zecryphon, throw out any old medications that have expired. They can be very bad for your health. Just throw them out!

Just an friendly FYI.

god's_pawn · Mar 9, 2009

dGirl1986 said:
Actually, some of those drugs were originally used for medicinal purposes.

i believe a couple still are; however, that's not what Nadiine's getting at. she's talking about those drugs (and any for that matter) as they are used for recreational purposes.

Nadiine · Mar 9, 2009

dGirl1986 said:
Actually, some of those drugs were originally used for medicinal purposes.

and being brand new, like the cocaine from the coca plant in the late
1800's, they didn't KNOW the repercussions and problems.

Like any other drugs that they find out are harmful, they ban it
altogether (make it illegal) and/or limit it to prescription only becuz
it has medicinal use, but is harmful if not under Dr. care.

In the case of something like morphine, patients are in SO much
excruciating pain, that they don't get hallucinations or other
effects morphine would do if they had no pain for the drug to
work against.
There's a big difference in recreational drug taking and serious
medical need.

Nadiine · Mar 9, 2009

god's_pawn said:
i believe a couple still are; however, that's not what Nadiine's getting at. she's talking about those drugs (and any for that matter) as they are used for recreational purposes.

yes thanks for the input/clarification

elephunky · Mar 9, 2009

They still use some of those drugs for medicinal purposes. Not in the sniffing way either.

A lot of drugs used today that cant be sold over the counter are also addictive and have bad side effects, people become addicted to painkillers, or use them to top themselves. So your comment in that respect isnt really valid.

Nadiine · Mar 9, 2009

dGirl1986 said:
They still use some of those drugs for medicinal purposes. Not in the sniffing way either.

A lot of drugs used today that cant be sold over the counter are also addictive and have bad side effects, people become addicted to painkillers, or use them to top themselves. So your comment in that respect isnt really valid.

Yes I know, but you aren't taking it "recreationally" to get a mental
high for intoxication.
It's purpose is to dull pain or block something or whatever for an
actual medical reason.

Most drugs can mess you up if you aren't truly sick - and some do
mess you up even when you are sick - they just claim the alternative
without it is even worse which it very well may be depending on
circumstances.

Either way, I think we all know what I'm talking about in getting
high on illegal drugs to alter our minds.

elephunky · Mar 9, 2009

Yeah i know waht you mean in that respect.

I feel sorry for those people.

Poverello78 · Mar 10, 2009

dGirl1986 said:
We are told that God wanted us to choose to follow him, to believe in him and to obey him...Then we are told that if we dont we will go to hell. Doesnt really sound like a choice to me.

Why then would it be called free choice and free will when there is a consequence to CHOOSING the other path?

Its like saying to a kid, you can listen to the story if you want...but if you dont you will spend the rest of the week in detention.

From both a literal and metaphorical perspective, it's more like saying "you can put your hand in the fire or not". However, I believe your questions relies to heavily on literal understanding and the notion of time. Perhaps it would be easier to understand it with an example from life as we now know it: Lets say are angry with someone because they hurt you in some way or another. Well, if you think about it, anger is actually something that hurts you and not the person who hurt you. If you loved and understood the person who hurt you, you would find yourself not being angry, but sympathetic--perhaps even empathetic; I believe virtually everyone has experience this to an extent.

From this simple understanding of a lack of love and understanding causing additional pain to you, it can easily be seen that hell has presented itself to you through your selfish desires and lack of love. That is, you wanted someone to treat you a particular way, they didn't, and you became angry and suffered.

It is known that God wants us to love and understand one another and so it can simply be deduced that, because we often experience a lack of love and understanding causing us to suffer, therefore we have personal experience as to what hell could mean.

Whatever can be derived from that is a long discussion, and I think this will suffice for the point. Does it make sense?

Poverello78 · Mar 10, 2009

So I replied to the op, then read some of the last replies and realized the convo has turned to drugs. I have a lot of knowledge about drugs, so I'll see if I can fit myself in somewhere here.

Rick Otto · Mar 10, 2009

Originally Posted by Rick Otto

The pharmo-...pffft! The drug use criticised in scripture was religious.
Therapeutic applications weren't being addressed.
Not that therapeutic applications are free of ethical restraint, rather they are simply not being addressed in that particular passage.

Nadiine said:
So you're going to tell us that street drugs are fine as Christians?

LOL! Street drugs are not Christians.
I didn't realize you were going to the street for therapeutic drugs!
Or perhaps you're asking if being Christian makes them safe?
Ok, now I'm tryin' to be silly, too.

Rick Otto · Mar 10, 2009

I'll see if I can fit myself in somewhere here.

you're doin' fine. good post, Pov.

Zecryphon · Mar 10, 2009

one11 said:
Zecryphon, throw out any old medications that have expired. They can be very bad for your health. Just throw them out!

Just an friendly FYI.

But if I throw them out, I can't throw them at Nadiine. But seriously, you can take expired meds for up to a year, after that they're pretty ineffective. But they don't become poisonous and they won't kill you. I don't take any expired meds anyway. I just leave them in the medicine cabinet and get new scripts.

Nadiine · Mar 10, 2009

Zecryphon said:
But if I throw them out, I can't throw them at Nadiine. But seriously, you can take expired meds for up to a year, after that they're pretty ineffective. But they don't become poisonous and they won't kill you. I don't take any expired meds anyway. I just leave them in the medicine cabinet and get new scripts.

Yep the same is true of vitamins too, they don't 'go bad' after an
expire date, they lose potency and if you don't take them soon after,
there isn't much point in taking them at all,
it's better to keep them up to date I think.

If you throw any of the good ones, make sure you aim at my
mouth

Zecryphon · Mar 10, 2009

Nadiine said:
Yep the same is true of vitamins too, they don't 'go bad' after an
expire date, they lose potency and if you don't take them soon after,
there isn't much point in taking them at all,
it's better to keep them up to date I think.

If you throw any of the good ones, make sure you aim at my
mouth

The only script I have that's expired is Hydrocodone, which did nothing for me. But I have a friend on Facebook in Tuskeegee, who swears by this stuff. It's weird he's even taking it, considering he's a Word of Faith guy. LOL

Generics work for some people. My Xanax is still good as I switched to Klonopin from Xanax a month or so ago. I can aim some Xanax at your mouth, should be pretty easy to catch, it's a small pill, unlike these Vicodin horse-pills I'm taking. These things are huge! But oh man, are they good for pain! LOL

Nadiine · Mar 10, 2009

Zecryphon said:
The only script I have that's expired is Hydrocodone, which did nothing for me. But I have a friend on Facebook in Tuskeegee, who swears by this stuff. It's weird he's even taking it, considering he's a Word of Faith guy. LOL

Generics work for some people. My Xanax is still good as I switched to Klonopin from Xanax a month or so ago. I can aim some Xanax at your mouth, should be pretty easy to catch, it's a small pill, unlike these Vicodin horse-pills I'm taking. These things are huge! But oh man, are they good for pain! LOL

LOL
ya I might well get a bad welt or choke if you whipped a Vicodin at
me hehe

That reminds me, I have just got to sign onto Facebook and see
what that's all about. I've still never even been on that site before.

dies-l · Mar 10, 2009

Zecryphon said:
It's weird he's even taking it, considering he's a Word of Faith guy. LOL

The funny thing about WoF is that your friend is not all that unusual.

jtahalele · Mar 10, 2009

dGirl1986 said:
We are told that God wanted us to choose to follow him, to believe in him and to obey him...Then we are told that if we dont we will go to hell. Doesnt really sound like a choice to me.

Why then would it be called free choice and free will when there is a consequence to CHOOSING the other path?

Its like saying to a kid, you can listen to the story if you want...but if you dont you will spend the rest of the week in detention.

There's always a consequence for the choices we make, no matter what they are. Anyone who's lived long enough should realize that. Even a child knows that there are consequences for the choices he or she makes. for example: if i eat the bubble gum it'll taste good (that's a good result)... there are always consequences that they don't know of though, such as the possibility of their teeth rotting from too much bubble gum. The consequences may be good or bad, but there are consequences none-the-less.

We all make choices based on the end result (or what we think the outcome will be). I buy food at the store because I think it will satisfy my hunger in the end (whether i'm actually hungry or just depressed). There's always an outcome, result, or consequence. Whichever term you want to use.

Even if it is just random, such as not knowing a direction to go in so you pick one at random. We still make it based on a desired outcome whether it be a good consequence or just that we want to see what the consequence will be.

And there are those who just don't care about the outcome, so they make choices in rebellion, but there still is a consequence for their choice.

It seems to me that for you it's not whether or not it's a choice or whether a consequence makes something a choice or not. You just don't like the outcome. If you don't like it, why not choose the path that has a better outcome (ie. belief in Christ)? Although you may already be a Christian. I don't want to come across as arrogant or pushy to you. I'm just stating my observations and thoughts on the issue.

jtahalele · Mar 10, 2009

Consequences are a part of reality and when you avoid reality, you close your mind to the truth and are unable to see it or just don't want to see it. It is better to fear God than fear the outcome, because God is always good and the outcome may not be so good.

jtahalele · Mar 10, 2009

When you say that God tells us to make a choice you are making a circular argument, because then you are implying that we have to choose whether or not to obey God's commandment (if he commanded us to) to make a choice. We're making a choice regardless of Him commanding us to or not. The only way that we wouldn't be able to make a choice is if God treated us like robots and controlled every thought and action we did. Because we have control over our actions, we have a choice.

Is it really a choice?

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