Is it possible to prove logic without using logic?

[KCfromNC]

Applied Science

Basic Science

Strangely enough, neither article contains the words true or truth. Seems I was right to be suspicious.

 

[Gottservant]

I believe we are describing relationships that exist in reality because I think you need those relationships to build a thinking brain.

And, I have not posited anything these are conclusions of mine.



The brain is a biochemical reactor, I don't believe it is the source of logical relationships in reality.

You are the one positing that there needs to be a god for there to be logic, I have no problem deriving logic from the physical relationships that ideas are based upon.

Reality doesn't contradict itself, the law of non contradiction doesn't therefore originate in the brain, it is a brains description of the universe.



No, it isn't.

You just aren't quite capable of grasping the possibility that Gods don't exist.

Reality contradicts itself, it begins and ends, you just want to extend appreciation to the Universe that you don't extend to God.

Well, God is not going to Judge you, but He's not going to extend His Favour to you either.

So you are left with the fact that you are hoping the relationships you posit incorporate a need for you to exist, while denying that a relationship of need necessarily implies an agency to which you would be accountable.

 

[variant]

Reality contradicts itself, it begins and ends, you just want to extend appreciation to the Universe that you don't extend to God.

I don't think that qualifies as a contradiction, nor do I think you are aware of the ends of reality.

I don't know of any Gods, where as consistent reality I am familiar with as I experience it daily.

Well, God is not going to Judge you, but He's not going to extend His Favour to you either.

So you are left with the fact that you are hoping the relationships you posit incorporate a need for you to exist, while denying that a relationship of need necessarily implies an agency to which you would be accountable.

You can just assert that God is necessary all you like, but don't expect people to pay much attention.

The faulty premise here is that you think God is necessary for logic, something you've not remotely shown to be true.

 

[Gottservant]

You see, that is exactly what I am talking about.

I never said God was necessary for logic, I said you are talking as if the thing that makes logic valid is dependent on an agency that any normal person would say was proof of a God

You imagining that I am saying God is necessary for logic is a consequence of your desire to reconcile your projection - which you don't want to deny - with the truth about God - which you at least only appear to say you do want to deny

don't ask me, take a look at yourself, do you see God in logic now that you've convinced yourself that's what I'm saying?

 

[variant]

You see, that is exactly what I am talking about.

I never said God was necessary for logic, I said you are talking as if the thing that makes logic valid is dependent on an agency that any normal person would say was proof of a God

Well that's just stupid then, I guess I am in the habit of giving you more credit than you deserve.

I didn't say anything about agency or god, or normal people. I think the universe is structured in such a way as to make logic a valid description of how it operates.

And, I said I think this structure is required for brains to function.

You imagining that I am saying God is necessary for logic is a consequence of your desire to reconcile your projection - which you don't want to deny - with the truth about God - which you at least only appear to say you do want to deny

It's a desire for your argument to make sense. Again, I gave you more credit than you deserve.

Feel free to deny that "god must exist for there to be logic" is one of your premises, it just makes the argument you are making nonsense.

don't ask me, take a look at yourself, do you see God in logic now that you've convinced yourself that's what I'm saying?

No. I don't see god as necessary for logic I just said as much. This wouldn't make logic a god either.