• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Is it possible to have a professional conversation about the history of Textual Criticism?

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by Dr. Jack, Jun 26, 2019.

  1. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

    689
    +95
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    I am asked many times why there are so many versions of our Christian Bible. I believe the answer lays in the history of Textual Criticism, and understanding the purpose of its origin, and what the theological views were of those who brought Textual Criticism into existence. Is it possible to have a civil conversation about this topic; and can it be kept at a professional, and polite level?
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,704
    United States
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    US-Others
    Textual criticism is simply trying to find the most reliable text of the Bible, or of this or that passage therein.

    Origen, I think was the first to do so with his Hexapla.

    With the NT, there are really only two basic texts: the Alexandrian and the Textus Receptus. The differences between these, outside of a verse here and there, are the Pericope de adultera, the "lost ending" of Mark, and the Johannine comma. Even the teaching of these passages are supported elsewhere in the NT.

    The Eastern Churches prefer the LXX for the OT. It's based on an older Hebrew text than the Masoretic Text.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  3. Akita Suggagaki

    Akita Suggagaki Active Member

    461
    +281
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    I hope so. It sounds good.

    But I beleive it started with protestants so Catholics will be Skeptical. No?
     
  4. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    +3,483
    Canada
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    Textual criticism continues in the Evangelical tradition of being applied by the interpreter to texts they don't want to follow, and not applied to the ones they would like everyone else to follow.

    When looking at an interpretation model the fruit is all that matters.

    As far as the origin of textual criticism, I believe the Jesus Seminar was one group at the centre of forming this type of bible interpretation where genre is examined as evidence to what the text is really saying, and historical data is examined to determine when a text was actually written. (i.e. this was the subject matter, so it was written at the same time as these texts which was in this decade, or this century)
     
  5. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

    +6,445
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Actually, it was the LXX that Jesus used for His OT quotes. It is difficult to determine which of the NT texts are the most reliable, because the original has been lost, and so all the texts available to us are copies.
     
  6. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,115
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Each version can be a ministry of whoever did that translation. And each of us does our ministering differently.

    I have been blessed by reading a Spanish translation. The ones doing this, I would say, were ministering as well as translating.
     
  7. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,704
    United States
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    US-Others
    I know that.

    YOu simply proved my point--the LXX is based on an older text than the Masoretic.

    The NT the Byzantine Churches us is the accurate one.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  8. ml5363

    ml5363 Active Member

    487
    +205
    Christian
    Married
    I personally believe the multiple versions are to create confusion...
     
  9. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

    +6,445
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    I can understand that they would create confusion in those who are not genuinely converted to Christ and therefore don't have the Holy Spirit in them to rightly divide the word of truth for them.

    Usually those with just a religious spirit and not the Holy Spirit are the ones who quibble over the peripheral parts of the Scripture, and pass over the foundational gospel parts. Jesus said about those people that they strain at a gnat but swallow a camel!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  10. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

    689
    +95
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    I don't think it was Origen's purpose to "find the most reliable text of the Bible"; rather, Origen took upon himself to put several Greek translations into a single volume for comparison sake.

    What I am referring to is the process that is known as Textual Criticism that operates according to the rules formulated in the 18th and 19th centuries.

    It is important to understand the theological views of those who started the process of Textual Criticism, and their purpose, which was generated by the theological views.
     
  11. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,704
    United States
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    US-Others
    While various forms of Biblical criticism were generated and embraced by more liberal scholars, the general attitude was, "Hooray! Now we can really understand what the Bible is getting at!"
     
  12. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

    +4,242
    Presbyterian
    Single
    The Jesus Seminar was (to my knowledge) involved in higher criticism, which is what your post seems to describe. It doesn't affect the text, so it's not part of the current discussion.
     
  13. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

    689
    +95
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    Higher Criticism affects such views as the authenticity of particular Epistles. Take for example Ehrman's view that because of the different writing style of the Pastoral Epistles, he asserts that Paul wasn't the writer, hence the Pastorals are not authentic.

    This is particularly why it is necessary to know the theological views of those who both formulated the rules, as well as those who practice them.
     
  14. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    +3,483
    Canada
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    When I learned about textual criticism in secular university, the Jesus Seminar was discussed as part of it.

    The way they'd vote over whether a book was written by the author or not, doesn't sound like higher criticism to me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  15. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    +3,483
    Canada
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    Since putting "whether God really said that" to a vote mimicks what the snake said in the garden to the first humans, it would be a criticism of the text for sure, not higher criticism.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  16. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

    +4,242
    Presbyterian
    Single
    Yeah, but "textual criticism" has a specific meaning.
     
  17. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    +3,483
    Canada
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    Which one are you going by?
     
  18. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    +3,483
    Canada
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    Textual criticism - what is it?
    Textual criticism is why some verses are shorter in modern translations, the Jesus Seminar was foundational for that in terms of their voting system.
     
  19. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

    689
    +95
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    The Jesus Seminar was essentially a group of men that (according to them) decided to use all available sources (canonical and non-canonical) to determine what Jesus said, and what He didn't say.

    William Lane Craig wrote a great article on the Jesus Seminar
    Presuppositions and Pretensions of the Jesus Seminar | Reasonable Faith

    I think the proper way to describe the work of the Jesus Seminar would be a term such as "Biblical Criticism", rather than "Textual Criticism".
     
  20. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    +3,483
    Canada
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    What would you gather is the difference between the two?
     
Loading...