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We cannot habitually live in sin. God uses external means to achieve this sometimes. But if sin persists the person was not saved.Too vague, please explain.
This is most analogous to the Prodigal Son journey, I would say.The Bible refers as we know to be born again as to when a believer comes to saving faith in the living God. We also know that some believers lose their faith to later in life come to faith again. Does this mean such a person has been born again twice?
We cannot habitually live in sin. God uses external means to achieve this sometimes. But if sin persists the person was not saved.
You need to decide between scripture and what you think you see.For all we know, and there was no indication he was not, the guy I mention was living in sin habitually, or do you have proof he was not? Another problem with that is it states clearly he was lost, I mean the bible says that, and the only way I know of to lose salvation is to live in habitual sin of give God up altogether, but in this case the sin was clearly the the reason he was lost, so it had to be habitual. So you see, that scripture and what you claim fit together like two opposing magnets, it simply does't work
And it looks too me like the "external means" you say God uses was being taught to all, as something they need to do (because God won't force them), and if they don't do it the person would be lost. The decisions we make are all a part of this stage of life, and God will not make them for us. We can always claim God is doing everything that happens, but that doesn't make it true. We choose and those choices either equate to heaven or hell in the end.
Either way, that is proof they do fall away, but there is no proof of your claims.
You need to decide between scripture and what you think you see.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)if you have scripture that shows I'm in error, please, lets have it. I've already used scripture to cover my end of this. And please, if you do, add explanation so there is no misunderstanding.
We can basically agree on that definition.
To save this person from eternal death and welcome him/her to His Kingdom, that the person will live according to His will on Earth and share the gospel so heaven will invade Earth so to speak, that as many as possible might be saved.
It is simple when a person believes that Jesus is the promised Messiah from Old Testament prophecies and trust in The Messiah for the Gift of The Messiah's Eternal Life. They have been given Eternal Life, Jesus is Eternal Life and Jesus is the only person, a person can look to for life.
The Gospel of John states this many times and that is the same place that is found the idea of being born again.
From the same chapter
John 3:14,15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should
not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” 1 John 2:19 (KJV 1900)
I don't read too much of Calvin so I can't produce his position. As for OSAS Jesus says believers have eternal life. It has no beginning or end but exists eternally in God who cannot change.We just covered that one?
The verse I quoted was on that, and it thwarted what you think that means. As long as we are born of God, sure, but when we lose salvation something I already showed you could happen, then we are no longer born of God. It's really easy to understand.
Who is they? They are a particular group of people, the anti Christ. Can you give us any good reason to believe that pertains to anyone who leaves the faith? A single out of context scripture does not a doctrine make.
That was my immediate answer/response, then I looked it up and found someone who put it about the same, but better, and in much more detail. Please also get the lesson on how trickery/deception is used in order to defend Calvinism, or any OSAS, as this is more dead proof of that fact. If you think it is not dead proof your scripture was taken out of context, please show us where the following is in error. If you or any OSAS'r here cannot do that, I rest my case.
One last comment, if Calvin was the one who interpreted that scripture to mean what OSAS claims it means, it is clear he was either confused, shallow, or chose to twist the scripture by design. If that upsets anyone, just read, see for yourselves, and refute it if you can.
The simple version:
Bible Study
The more detailed version:
- Response 1: The “they” in verse 19 is about AntiChrists
The big issue with OSAS believers’ interpretation of 1 John 2:19 is that they are generalizing the word “they” to mean anyone. Basically, to Calvinists, ALL who “went out from us” were also “not of us”. But is that what the verse is saying? Of course not. This is not talking about anyone who comes out from a body of true believers, it is talking about a specific class of people called AntiChrists.
Now let’s look at the passage.
1 John 2:18-24
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They (Who is this “they”? it is the AntiChrists in verse 18) went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (So here John expands on who these AntiChrists are, they are the liars who deny that Jesus is the Christ and who by denying the Son, deny also the Father)
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
So, simply, this passage is not talking at all about what Calvinists are using it for. In other words, this passage is not saying that “all who go out from us” were never really “of us”. It is simply saying that these SPECIFIC AntiChrists went out because THEY were never really “of us”.
To say more than that is simply a desperate way to use an unrelated verse to back up the OSAS doctrine. That is why this is a classic example of pushing INTO scriptures what we want them to say instead of reading OUT of them what the author really intended.
Response 2: The believers in verse 19 (“Us” and “You”) are born-again believers who ABIDE IN CHRIST
Another important point is that we have to identify who is this “us” the apostle John is speaking about in 1 John 2:19.
Let’s look again at the passage, this time with that question in mind.
1 John 2:18-29
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye (plural you, John is talking to the believers) have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we (John includes himself with the believers) know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for IF they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us (here is the first clue as to who the believers are, they are the ones who CONTINUE): but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One (the believers have the Spirit), and ye know all things (the believers know all things).
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, (the believers know the truth) and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. (LET WHAT abide in them? what he just spoke about, that Jesus is the Son of God and the Christ). IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, (IF that remains in them, they shall CONTINUE IN THE SON) and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even ETERNAL LIFE. (So this promise is for those who CONTINUE BY LETTING THE TRUTH ABIDE IN THEM)
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
Basically, taken in context, this passage goes exactly AGAINST the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved. Why?
Because the promise of eternal life is for those who:
- have the unction of the Holy Spirit
- know the truth of Jesus as the Son of God and as Christ
- LET the truth abide in them
- CONTINUE IN THE SON, ABIDE IN HIM IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Conclusion
In conclusion, to use this verse to back up the false doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” would be to take verse 19 completely out of context. This is obviously done to back up a preconceived taught doctrine and that is surely not reading out of the scriptures but INTO them something they do not say.
Dear friend, did this article convince you that “Once Saved Always Saved” is a man-made doctrine? If yes, then I am so happy for you. I am happy because now you know the truth. This truth is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is the Christ, the truth that we have to continue believing in Him and let His Truth abide in us, the truth that we have to continue abiding in Him in righteousness until the end to have the promise of eternal life.
May God help us abide in His Son in the joy and hope of the Spirit until the end!
Once Saved Always Saved’s Abuse of 1 John 2:19
The Bible refers as we know to be born again as to when a believer comes to saving faith in the living God. We also know that some believers lose their faith to later in life come to faith again. Does this mean such a person has been born again twice?
One scenario might be that the believer never was born again the first time. But then how do we know the second time is a true rebirth?
It may also be so that the first time was a real rebirth, but the Holy Spirit was quenched, and the person left Christianity practically, but still had faith somewhere down inside (possibly denied), and coming back to faith "again" was simply relighting the spark, the Holy Spirit that was there inside.
The third option is that the person was reborn, then lost his faith which got the Holy Spirit to leave, to later in life be born again a second time and once again receiving the Holy Spirit.
Can a person be born again more than one time? Please back up with scriptures (and, or with Church fathers).
Christ love,
P
Remember Lazarus was died and was born again. He died a second time. In the resurrection will he be born a third time? If he was reborn spiritually would that make an expected total of four births?There are 2 births (one physical and one spiritual) and 2 deaths (one physical and one spiritual)...with Yeshua the 2nd death has no power.
My answer is yes... BUT... here is the deal. We only have John 3 in terms of being "born again" using that phrase. We have other scriptures where "born anew" and other phrases are used. However, in that day, the word was used many places outside of Scripture and was fairly common in the culture which might explain why Yeshua was, in part, troubled by Nicodemus' answer?
Remember Lazarus was died and was born again. He died a second time. In the resurrection will he be born a third time? If he was reborn spiritually would that make an expected total of four times in rebirth?
This is most analogous to the Prodigal Son journey, I would say.
IOW, when the son/daughter journeys far, ... but ultimately returns home, ... and is reaffirmed in his/her heritage ...
That is certainly possible. All I am saying is, the phrase "born again" wasn't unknown to that culture as it had SECULAR uses. Thus, since Yeshua was using it for spiritual reasons, it is possible that Nicodemus wasn't following the application as the cultural definition remained on his mind. Not saying I am correct, I am saying this is possible.It was because Nakdimon, being a Pharisee, believed in the resurrection of the dead so Yeshua was puzzled why he did not understand...
I don't read too much of Calvin so I can't produce his position. As for OSAS Jesus says believers have eternal life. It has no beginning or end but exists eternally in God who cannot change.
Eternal life = SASThat's all? Nothing on the dead proof? Are we now going to conveniently just let that one float off into the sunset because it absolutely shows your scripture to be wrong? That's too bad.
As I said, if you cannot refute what shows that scripture was taken out of context, I rest my case.
Also, I would ask the Calvinist's /OSASr's, please stop and think before you post scripture that supposedly defends you stance as it may be a complete deception that you didn't catch on to because you wanted to believe what was said, so you didn't look into it to be sure it actually said what it was claimed to say..
And you wouldn't want to deceive anyone into coming over to your side...would you?
Eternal life = SAS
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