Is it possible for me to be converted with this condition?

[MethodMan]

And I can agree to your last three.

God loved you so much, that he sent his Son to take your place the Wrath of God has been satisfied. God is Just.

Now, I must sadly inform you that it is not my task to convert you to anything. I am sent to witness and disciple. The Holy Spirit will convert you when the Holy Spirit is ready.

God does not ask you to check your brain at the door. God has given man the ability to reason. The problem is, Man has used that gift to distort the truth into his own liking when they have trouble with the reason making sense. Either that, or they discard the notion all together.

No, God has revealed Himself to all. He does this through Scripture, Science and Nature. He has shown Man incapable of "Good" without His Grace.

MM

 

[Deren]

There are a few basic tenets that I believe in that I would not be willing to give up for religion and they are as follows.

That all people are generally good.

That to have proof is better then to believe without proof.

That logic and reason should be at the core of how the world is viewed.

That fear should never guide decisions.

That new ideas should be examined.

That old ideas should be changed if they are found to be wrong.

The condition is that no part of your attempt to convert me can override any of these tenets. The other option is to show that the tenet you override is not worth being a tenet. I ask this because every attempt to convert me has failed with this condition.

DP, trust me, if God wants to regenerate you, He will, regardless of the self-made wall that you've erected that you think is inpenetrable.

 

[DarkProphet]

God's standard as set out in the Bible. Man was created with the ability to be good by god's standard and has chosen not to.

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

You imply that it is possible to pass God's standard but if God's standard is simply to not commit sins then do we not fail from birth because of the original sin?

 

[MethodMan]

You imply that it is possible to pass God's standard but if God's standard is simply to not commit sins then do we not fail from birth because of the original sin?

Yep!

 

[DarkProphet]

You imply that it is possible to pass God's standard but if God's standard is simply to not commit sins then do we not fail from birth because of the original sin?

Yep!

Then what good is a standard if it is impossible to meet from the beginning?

 

[Deren]

Then what good is a standard if it is impossible to meet from the beginning?

To demonstrate your need for God, as well as inform you of just what kind of person God is in His holiness as a person. And when Israel received those commandments, it wasn't long thereafter that they found out both of those things in a hurry, some of them meeting their demise in the process.

 

[heron]

Sorry for being rude and detracting from your questions.

That all people are generally good.
I agree in part, because it's easy to see underlying reasons for poor decisions people make, especially when they are trying to avoid repeated harm.

Jesus approached people with understanding and compassion -- a woman about to be stoned for adultery, a tax collector that others considered a scheister -- because He could see their true intents through the surface appearance.God knows our ultimate potential... what we could be if every wound and failure were set aside. He offers a continual fresh start.

That to have proof is better then to believe without proof.
Sure. Proof would be nice. For me, proof and logic come through trial and investigation. The more I search, the more I find.

That logic and reason should be at the core of how the world is viewed.
I haven't run across a conflict here, that I can remember. Feel free to expand on what you mean.

That fear should never guide decisions.
Ha ha. Ideally! But we all have fight-flight instincts that take over even when we're trying to be rational and calm. I'm guessing that by fear, you mean fear of Hell. Most Christians I know don't threaten newcomers with "do or die" lectures.

That new ideas should be examined.
Sure. If you spent some time in Charismatic circles, you'd be so overwhelmed with new ideas that you would plead for stability. Charismatics make everyday conversation of mystical and supernatural experience, healing and miracles. And information grows, as people listen for spiritual input.

That old ideas should be changed if they are found to be wrong.
Hm... sounds like a well-crafted statement with many thoughts behind it. Something specific you want to discuss?

 

[MethodMan]

Then what good is a standard if it is impossible to meet from the beginning?

But it wasn't from the beginning. God gave everything needed and a choice was made. A choice that you must make for yourself and in you own time. One that see you walk away from personal desire for self gratification and learning what is God's Will. Once you life falls in line with His Will, Life and all the drama become some much less important as it once was.

 

[heron]

Remember that when people have told you things about Christianity over the years, they are expressing their interpretation, not always the views of the whole range of Christendom. It takes some sorting to wade through what we say.

 

[DarkProphet]

Remember that when people have told you things about Christianity over the years, they are expressing their interpretation, not always the views of the whole range of Christendom. It takes some sorting to wade through what we say.

What do you mean by whole range of Christendom?

 

[salida]

DarkProphet--

Since I believe the Bible and nothing else concerning my perspection I will have to say that "people arn't generally good". They are born with a fallen nature.

New ideas? God never changes and is the standard against anything else. Since the Bible is true with overwhelming evidence just like the law of gravity - it doesn't change according to mens cultures and traditions. The creator knows more than the creature.

 

[DarkProphet]

Since the Bible is true with overwhelming evidence just like the law of gravity - it doesn't change according to mens cultures and traditions. The creator knows more than the creature.

Could you elaborate on this evidence?

 

[salida]

DarkProphet--

A person is saved -Ephesians 2:8 by grace through faith. Romans explains a byproduct of true faith is works. We arn't saved by works alone - its a gift from God by accepting Jesus.

No one can keep the 10 commandments 100% - the only way to do this is die and go to heaven. But salvation is a gift from God.

 

[salida]

Yes, darkprophet. I will give you some information in a nutshell below. And will try to add more tomorrow since its late here and I have to go to bed.

But I strongly suggest you read Evidence that Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in court) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest but now a christian).

Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible

- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[salida]

Also, a website I really like; www.reasons.org is about science and belief - a guy with a PhD in Chemistry started it. I'm a chemist myself.

***Again, I will try to give you more information later but I'm limited because this email isn't that large- and we arn't allowed to put pages on here.

 

[DarkProphet]

Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Thank you for this list. I have seen most of it before but there are a few items I have not seen before.

 

[Digit]

This is not a contest or a game. We are not out to win you, or reshape you into some form you will never fit. God isn't out to sweep away your common sense and decency either.

Exactly. Well said.

Something came up last night at my Alpha course, which was that the speaker was saying how he was really scared that by accepting Christianity, God would ask him to do something he really would hate. At the time, the thing he hated most was the thought of becoming an Clergyman of the English Church. Oddly, now that he is one, he says it's the most fun he's ever had, because God changes our desires through salvation. We begin to want to do better things with ourlives, and feel the pull towards these things. When we call on God, he draws us near.

So you may find, that if you accept God, you will be pulled closer and all these things will change.

Digit

 

[ebia]

There are a few basic tenets that I believe in that I would not be willing to give up for religion and they are as follows.

That all people are generally good.

That to have proof is better then to believe without proof.

That logic and reason should be at the core of how the world is viewed.

That fear should never guide decisions.

That new ideas should be examined.

That old ideas should be changed if they are found to be wrong.

The condition is that no part of your attempt to convert me can override any of these tenets. The other option is to show that the tenet you override is not worth being a tenet. I ask this because every attempt to convert me has failed with this condition.

As they stand, yes. Except to say that there must be some subtext to "That fear should never guide decisions." Fear guides all sorts of decisions - if it didn't, we would end up toast the first time we tried to cross the road. I presume you mean something more subtle than that but it's not self-evident what it is.

 

[Catherineanne]

There are a few basic tenets that I believe in that I would not be willing to give up for religion and they are as follows.

That all people are generally good.

That to have proof is better then to believe without proof.

That logic and reason should be at the core of how the world is viewed.

That fear should never guide decisions.

That new ideas should be examined.

That old ideas should be changed if they are found to be wrong.

I am happy to accept all of these as part of my faith. There is more to it than just these, of course, but none of them are incompatible with how or what I believe.

What makes you think they should be incompatible with faith?

 

[Catherineanne]

Do my tenets not meet some criteria of Christianity?

The criteria of Christianity are to do with relationship with Christ and with God. How you actually conduct that relationship is very much open to interpretation, and your version is perfectly possible.

However, as with any approach, there will be some who accuse you of not being as good a Christian as they are, because their values are different. As long as you can cope with this (and quite frankly, every Christian on earth from the Pope down hears this from some other branch somewhere) and keep your eyes on Christ, then it really doesn't matter whether anyone else believes in you or not.