Is it possible for me to be converted with this condition?

[DarkProphet]

There are a few basic tenets that I believe in that I would not be willing to give up for religion and they are as follows.

That all people are generally good.

That to have proof is better then to believe without proof.

That logic and reason should be at the core of how the world is viewed.

That fear should never guide decisions.

That new ideas should be examined.

That old ideas should be changed if they are found to be wrong.

The condition is that no part of your attempt to convert me can override any of these tenets. The other option is to show that the tenet you override is not worth being a tenet. I ask this because every attempt to convert me has failed with this condition.

 

[ConanTheLibrarian]

I would qualify your first condition about people being generally good, (just look at your daily newspaper). Otherwise, a Catholic would have no problem with the things you wrote. Even on your first item, Catholics recognize much good and common decency in ordinary people, even if we also see horrific evils such as terrorism and poverty.

I became Catholic just over a week ago, actually for some of the very reasons you mentioned on your list. The Catholic mindset is that God gave us brains, and meant for us to use them! A church that gave the world St.Thomas Aquinas can hardly be accused of being anti-intellectual.

I also appreciate how the Catholic Church seeks to engage the modern world. That will prove to be one of the beauties of Vatican II, once the dust finally settles. Ditto, the efforts of our recent popes in this regard. Pope John Paul did issue a number of apologies during his pontificate for the way the Church has treated people in the past. We always seek the way of reconciliation.

If anything, love is what has been highlighted for me in this entire process of becoming Catholic, love of God, and love of others. As 1 John 4:18 says, perfect love casts out fear. Hope this helps.

 

[DarkProphet]

I would qualify your first condition about people being generally good, (just look at your daily newspaper). Otherwise, a Catholic would have no problem with the things you wrote. Even on your first item, Catholics recognize much good and common decency in ordinary people, even if we also see horrific evils such as terrorism and poverty.

Newspapers tend to focus on the bad because it sells so I don't count that as a measure of decency.

I also appreciate how the Catholic Church seeks to engage the modern world. That will prove to be one of the beauties of Vatican II, once the dust finally settles. Ditto, the efforts of our recent popes in this regard. Pope John Paul did issue a number of apologies during his pontificate for the way the Church has treated people in the past. We always seek the way of reconciliation.

This is true and one of the things I appreciate about the modern Catholic Church. Whether or not that makes up for past mistakes is another matter.

I became Catholic just over a week ago, actually for some of the very reasons you mentioned on your list. The Catholic mindset is that God gave us brains, and meant for us to use them! A church that gave the world St.Thomas Aquinas can hardly be accused of being anti-intellectual.

I have read some of St. Thomas Aquinas's arguments and found them quite unpersuasive. Could you tell me what convinced you to become a Catholic?

 

[MethodMan]

If you stick rigidly to this:

"That all people are generally good."

I would have to say I doubt it. But with God, all things are possible. He would, as He did with Israel, show you the error of this statement.

 

[MethodMan]

I guess I should ask, What standard are you using to determine "good"?

Man's standard - You are most likely right. My previous post was what God has revealed in His Word.

 

[DarkProphet]

I guess I should ask, What standard are you using to determine "good"?

For now I will have to define "good" as treating people the same way you would want to be treated.

Man's standard - You are most likely right. My previous post was what God has revealed in His Word.

So what is God's standard?

 

[heron]

This is not a contest or a game. We are not out to win you, or reshape you into some form you will never fit. God isn't out to sweep away your common sense and decency either.

 

[DarkProphet]

This is not a contest or a game. We are not out to win you, or reshape you into some form you will never fit.

Fair enough but why would I need to be reshaped? Do my tenets not meet some criteria of Christianity?

 

[Diamonds2004]

There are a few basic tenets that I believe in that I would not be willing to give up for religion and they are as follows.

That all people are generally good.

That to have proof is better then to believe without proof.

That logic and reason should be at the core of how the world is viewed.

That fear should never guide decisions.

That new ideas should be examined.

That old ideas should be changed if they are found to be wrong.

The condition is that no part of your attempt to convert me can override any of these tenets. The other option is to show that the tenet you override is not worth being a tenet. I ask this because every attempt to convert me has failed with this condition.

I agree with these tenents of your except for the first and the last. By looking at the last 6,000 years of military history, there has only been 18 years in world history where no wars were being fought. Its also very clear from daily newspapers and TV reports that man does not gnereally treat his fellow man with kindness. The testing of things over a long period of time helps show the true nature of things. The fact of these two previous facts are true show one thing, people are not generally good.

The last tenet is examining new ideas and old idea changing if shown to be wrong. If you refer to an idea in a religious-sense about old ideas, then I think the emphasis you have given to that is wrong. Age of an idea is irrelevant when testing and examing it. Only an idea that fails physical evidence must it change or itself be dropped.

One other thing is that when you say the word "religion" I an assuming you are talking about Christianity. Please correct me if that statement is wrong.

 

[ConanTheLibrarian]

Could you tell me what convinced you to become a Catholic?

Someday I might write a book about that. At the risk of distracting the current discussion, I took 19th century convert John Henry Newman to heart, "To be deep in history is to cease to be a protestant."

Two critical factors for me were catholicity and authority. I touched on the latter in another thread of yours on the Bible. Catholicity means fullness, the fulness of truth, meant for all times and people of all nations, East and West. This means engaging Einstein as well as Aristotle. We must always be willing to dialogue with others.

The Church, while being true to its essential self, must also engage the 21st century, just as it did the 1st through 20th centuries. Again, while remaining true to itself, it must affirm what is true and right in all cultures as it takes the Gospel to all nations.

I hope this makes some sense. I'm trying to distill years of thinking into a few paragraphs at an odd hour of the night.

 

[aiki]

There are a few basic tenets that I believe in that I would not be willing to give up for religion and they are as follows.

That all people are generally good.

-- "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked..." (Jer. 17:9)

-- "For all have sinned a come short of the glory of God." (Ro. 3:23)

That to have proof is better then to believe without proof.

That logic and reason should be at the core of how the world is viewed.

That fear should never guide decisions.

-- I don't know if you've thought this one through very well. Fear is an important element in keeping us from harm. One who fears nothing is soon dead.

That new ideas should be examined.

That old ideas should be changed if they are found to be wrong.

The condition is that no part of your attempt to convert me can override any of these tenets. The other option is to show that the tenet you override is not worth being a tenet. I ask this because every attempt to convert me has failed with this condition.

-- I see, you wish to make a challenge, not pose a question. Looking for a fight are you? What are you hoping to achieve through your challenge?

Peace to you.

 

[Criada]

God loves You
Christ died for You

That's it, really!
If the Spirit of God convicts you, He will bring faith.
Otherwise, you cannot gain it for yourself.
Certainly not by intellectual arguement.
Faith is a spirit thing!
I wasted years trying to understand God intellectually - don't do the same, friend!

Bless you

 

[DarkProphet]

By looking at the last 6,000 years of military history, there has only been 18 years in world history where no wars were being fought. Its also very clear from daily newspapers and TV reports that man does not gnereally treat his fellow man with kindness. The testing of things over a long period of time helps show the true nature of things. The fact of these two previous facts are true show one thing, people are not generally good.

Very few people are actually responsible for wars. The rest simply participate because they feel that doing so is what is best (or they were forced). Newspapers and TV report things that are not common and as such cannot be used as a measure of human nature. Still you are right to point out the fact that these things exist weaken the first tenet. With that being said the most that would do is qualify the first one to say *most* people rather then *all* people.

The last tenet is examining new ideas and old idea changing if shown to be wrong. If you refer to an idea in a religious-sense about old ideas, then I think the emphasis you have given to that is wrong. Age of an idea is irrelevant when testing and examing it.

I don't mean physical age I mean order of being presented. If I was just learning about Christianity then the old ideas in the Bible would be new to me.

Only an idea that fails physical evidence must it change or itself be dropped.

Exactly.

One other thing is that when you say the word "religion" I an assuming you are talking about Christianity. Please correct me if that statement is wrong.

Well, you can take to mean Christianity as this is a Christian forum but I generally mean any religion.

 

[childofGod31]

I believe converting is just like falling in love. You make a list of things your spouse should have. Then you meet someone and fall in love (and guess what, she doesn't meet some of your criteria...) and what do you do? You throw away the list and marry her anyway.

Your list doesn't meet God's criteria (He values faith above all). Therefore, you cannot become a Christian.

But it doesn't matter because you cannot DECIDE to become a Christian in the same way you cannot DECIDE to fall in love. It just happens. God touches your heart and leads you to feel remorse, to fall in love with him and to give your life to him.

You can decide to become a Christian at any time, but if you don't meet God's criteria (of having faith and believing in Jesus and willingness to give your life to God), then you will not be saved (even though you might be a church member). You might become one of those who will come to Jesus and say: Lord, in your name we did miracles. And Jesus will say: away from me, I never knew you. (meaning the Holy Spirit never came into your heart, and so you do not belong to me)

 

[heron]

Originally Posted by heron
This is not a contest or a game. We are not out to win you, or reshape you into some form you will never fit.

Fair enough but why would I need to be reshaped? Do my tenets not meet some criteria of Christianity?

Darkprophet, the reason I said that --

I ask this because every attempt to convert me has failed with this condition.

...puts the challenge into the hands of other people. Your decision is between God and you, and has nothing to do with whether we accept you or you accept us ... or even tenets. God and you, that's all.

It seems you are trying to present to us a challenge that you doubt we'll be able to meet. (I'm picturing the blue monkeys of what is it-- Mathblaster?)

You are either interested in pursuing God, or you're not. That's your responsibilty, not ours. A search of faith is a very personal decision. We will gladly answer your questions, but not in a state where we scramble to appease you. Take it up with God.

 

[DarkProphet]

-- "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked..." (Jer. 17:9)

-- "For all have sinned a come short of the glory of God." (Ro. 3:23)

I find it interesting that the first tenet is the one that is the most challenged. I cannot imagine what having a negative view of people would do to my outlook on life.

-- I don't know if you've thought this one through very well. Fear is an important element in keeping us from harm. One who fears nothing is soon dead.

Fear is usually based on reason on some level, such as a child's fear of the dark being based on not knowing what is there. What I mean from this is to separate the emotion from the reason.

-- I see, you wish to make a challenge, not pose a question. Looking for a fight are you? What are you hoping to achieve through your challenge?

I wish to see if my world view is compatible with yours and if not, why.

 

[DarkProphet]

I believe converting is just like falling in love. You make a list of things your spouse should have. Then you meet someone and fall in love (and guess what, she doesn't meet some of your criteria...) and what do you do? You throw away the list and marry her anyway.

I know a few Christian people that have required that their spouse convert to the same denomination they are, clearly some criteria had to be met.

Your list doesn't meet God's criteria (He values faith above all). Therefore, you cannot become a Christian.

I guess not because that is asking me to believe without proof.

But it doesn't matter because you cannot DECIDE to become a Christian in the same way you cannot DECIDE to fall in love. It just happens. God touches your heart and leads you to feel remorse, to fall in love with him and to give your life to him.

You can decide to become a Christian at any time, but if you don't meet God's criteria (of having faith and believing in Jesus and willingness to give your life to God), then you will not be saved (even though you might be a church member). You might become one of those who will come to Jesus and say: Lord, in your name we did miracles. And Jesus will say: away from me, I never knew you. (meaning the Holy Spirit never came into your heart, and so you do not belong to me)

This implies that there is no conscious way to be saved. If that is the case then why bother trying to convert people in the first place?

 

[DarkProphet]

Your decision is between God and you, and has nothing to do with whether we accept you or you accept us ... or even tenets. God and you, that's all.

I am talking about religion not God and as such it does matter if I accept you or you accept me. If it was simply a matter of just God and me then Christianity as a religion would not exist.

We will gladly answer your questions, but not in a state where we scramble to appease you.

Very well, here is a more direct question. Are any of my tenets counter to Christian teachings? and if so, why?

Take it up with God.

I would if I could.

 

[MethodMan]

For now I will have to define "good" as treating people the same way you would want to be treated.

Then you want held to man's standard. Considerably lower than that of God. So you can stick to your first tenant. You need to realize that that "good" is not good enough.

So what is God's standard?

God's standard as set out in the Bible. Man was created with the ability to be good by god's standard and has chosen not to.

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

I totally agree with 2 & 3

 

[BelindaP]

No, they are not. People have trouble with that first one because before God we are not good. That is because His standard is perfection. According to your standard, however, most people are good.

I will post an open thread in the liberal Christian forum to get you started with your inquiries. Here it is. Because it has an open tag, you may post in that thread.