Is it OK for Christians to protest against their political leaders?

[tulc]

Correct, but injustice must be properly defined. (snip)

...defined by who? If not the individual Christian then who gets to decide for my conscience what's just or unjust?
tulc(is just curious)

 

[tulc]

Substantiate your assertion. How are screaming rallies and protests NOT flesh displays when they violate scripture?
(snip)

As long as I'm not the one screaming that's not really my problem is it?
tulc(was kind of surprised when conservatives/Republicans discovered those Scriptures were even in the Bible after they disappeared for 8 years)

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Correct, but injustice must be properly defined. Injustice is not just anything with which you disagree. Others cannot be required to sublimate their religious beliefs to your desires, nor do we permit violation of public policy.

For example, one could (and will eventually) argue "Injustice!" because he can't marry two women at the same time. It's "unjust" that he has to choose, but oh well. It violates public policy for a lot of reasons.

I agree with tulc on this and I would appreciate it if you would answer his questions. And if I may ask, do you have any personal experience in either social justice activism or political activism?

...defined by who? If not the individual Christian then who gets to decide for my conscience what's just or unjust?
tulc(is just curious)

 

[Shiloh Raven]

As long as I'm not the one screaming that's not really my problem is it?
tulc(was kind of surprised when conservatives/Republicans discovered those Scriptures were even in the Bible after they disappeared for 8 years)

As a long time social justice and political activist, I don't approve of either screaming or any kind of violence in public demonstrations. I know from experience that I can get my political point or social justice point across while demonstrating without resorting to screaming and I'm never violent.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

https://peteenns.com/is-it-ok-for-christians-to-protest-against-their-political-leaders/

tulc(interesting!)

Speaking as a social justice and political activist myself, I think Christians should stand up for what they believe in, even if I disagree with their personal convictions or political agenda. I do support their right to protest and I would respect their courage to stand up for what they believe in. But if I think their demonstration could lead to an injustice and discrimination against another group of people, they might very well find me in an opposing protest against them. I fully support gay rights, LGBT rights, and marriage equality. I tend to clash more with right wing Christians on those three particular social justice issues than any other social justice or political issue I've been involved in over the years.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Some food for thought concerning Christians protesting against the government.

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. (emphasis added)

A very relevant quote for today's political climate by President Theodore Roosevelt:

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I agree with tulc on this and I would appreciate it if you would answer his questions. And if I may ask, do you have any personal experience in either social justice activism or political activism?

You didn't respond to what I said, but are directing me to respond to what someone else said. Do what you tell me to do. That's fair.

Here is the type of retort that he makes. Last post was this: "..or they aren't and He does."

A frustrating substance-free non-response.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

.
Most definitely they should not vote.

Our position given to us by God is to PRAY For our Government, and if we had there is not telling what Laws that are not on the books would never have made it in the Courts.

We as Christians have been given the Authority, we just don't use it, we Protest,
we can protest till the cows come home, that doesn't give us a voice, but when we Pray, then we go directly to the Thrown Room of God and lay our petitions at our Fathers feet.

If we are the least bit entangled at all with Government, and that even means voting, then our Prayers will not be heard, because we have already chosen who we serve.

No, this is not true. We are to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. We need to do our civic duties.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

As long as I'm not the one screaming that's not really my problem is it?
tulc(was kind of surprised when conservatives/Republicans discovered those Scriptures were even in the Bible after they disappeared for 8 years)

And another non-substantive response.

Why bother?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

...defined by who? If not the individual Christian then who gets to decide for my conscience what's just or unjust?
tulc(is just curious)

Well, this is precisely why we need standards. Once, it was God's standards, even if some didn't live up to them. At least we agreed they were standards.

Today, you have every man for himself and as his own "god" and authority. This is why we have such a mess and such conflict. But it was all foretold. Jesus knew what was coming.

2 Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

Luke 12: (Jesus talking)
49“I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

Matthew 10:
21 “Brothers will turn against their own brothers and hand them over to be killed. Fathers will hand over their own children to be killed. Children will fight against their own parents and will have them killed. 22 Everyone will hate you because you follow me. But the one who remains faithful to the end will be saved. 23 When you are treated badly in one city, go to another city. I promise you that you will not finish going to all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes again.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Substantiate your assertion. How are screaming rallies and protests NOT flesh displays when they violate scripture?

Romans 13: 1-7 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; read more.

1 Timothy 2:1-3
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

Titus 3:1

Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,

1 Peter 2:13-14
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.

Not that I'm for "screaming rallies" but the US is ruled by law - the US Constitution (in addition to state constitutions and local laws) - not by people. So even though I'm not for "screaming rallies" I'm not sure that holding a screaming rally and screaming at a person(s) violates "subjection to to governing authorities."

For the US at least, the "governing authority" is (or ought to be) the written Constitution, not a person, even though various parts of the NT are quoted and applies as if US citizens are governed by a person(s).

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Not that I'm for "screaming rallies" but the US is ruled by law - the US Constitution (in addition to state constitutions and local laws) - not by people. So even though I'm not for "screaming rallies" I'm not sure that holding a screaming rally and screaming at a person(s) violates "subjection to to governing authorities."

For the US at least, the "governing authority" is (or ought to be) the written Constitution, not a person, even though various parts of the NT are quoted and applies as if US citizens are governed by a person(s).

A peaceful assembly and protest is fine and constitutionally protected.

A violent, rage-filled, curse-filled spew advocating violence against people, buildings, or cars, and blocking roads is criminal.

 

[tulc]

You didn't respond to what I said, but are directing me to respond to what someone else said. Do what you tell me to do. That's fair.

Here is the type of retort that he makes. Last post was this: "..or they aren't and He does."

A frustrating substance-free non-response.

uhmmm...no, it's a response that points out the fallacy of believing that there's only one response to what someone says. For instance: Someone says, "The only CHRISTIAN response to "X" is this!" I tend to point out that's not the only Christian response. In a lot of cases a Christian response could just as easily be the opposite of what the poster claims. I've learned over my years here that sometimes? Simply pointing that out will bring another poster up short and when they try and articulate why what they originally said was "THE ONLY CHRISTIAN RESPONSE!!" they start to realize there may indeed be another way a Christian could respond. I've also found if I respond "with guns blazing!!" instead of the other person trying to see there may be another way to look at something they simply come back at me with "their guns blazing!!" and all that's left is a bunch of "bullet riddled bodies" in the thread instead of people actually taking the time to try and see things from different perspectives.
tulc(likes to discuss things but finds it hard when everyone is just waiting to start shooting instead)

 

[JIMINZ]

No, this is not true. We are to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. We need to do our civic duties.

.
There is a marked difference between, Rendering unto Caesar which are due taxes levied on the population, and going to Register as a specific Party Member,
that would be your own choice to Register, we as Citizens are NOT required to Register, or even Vote when an Election is held, but don't try to NOT pay your Taxes.

 

[Yekcidmij]

A peaceful assembly and protest is fine and constitutionally protected.

A violent, rage-filled, curse-filled spew advocating violence against people, buildings, or cars, and blocking roads is criminal.

Oh, that just went from "screaming rallies" to violence against people and property. I thought you were saying something else.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Oh, that just went from "screaming rallies" to violence against people and property. I thought you were saying something else.

Well, that's what I meant by screaming. Not just making speeches with cheering and all that. Perfectly fine and Constitutional. But the other kind always move into property damage and sometimes violence.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

.
There is a marked difference between, Rendering unto Caesar which are due taxes levied on the population, and going to Register as a specific Party Member,
that would be your own choice to Register, we as Citizens are NOT required to Register, or even Vote when an Election is held, but don't try to NOT pay your Taxes.

I didn't say you had to register as a specific party member. No one said that.

Anyone can vote as an independent and never indicate a party preference at all, so long as you don't vote in primaries. But I think we should vote.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

uhmmm...no, it's a response that points out the fallacy of believing that there's only one response to what someone says. For instance: Someone says, "The only CHRISTIAN response to "X" is this!" I tend to point out that's not the only Christian response. In a lot of cases a Christian response could just as easily be the opposite of what the poster claims. I've learned over my years here that sometimes? Simply pointing that out will bring another poster up short and when they try and articulate why what they originally said was "THE ONLY CHRISTIAN RESPONSE!!" they start to realize there may indeed be another way a Christian could respond. I've also found if I respond "with guns blazing!!" instead of the other person trying to see there may be another way to look at something they simply come back at me with "their guns blazing!!" and all that's left is a bunch of "bullet riddled bodies" in the thread instead of people actually taking the time to try and see things from different perspectives.
tulc(likes to discuss things but finds it hard when everyone is just waiting to start shooting instead)

You rarely say anything, take any position (except "Trump is bad").

Support your positions. Don't simply assert them. What's the point of that? Not reading the entire thread back, but if someone asserts that X is the Christian position and supports that, the burden shifts to you, if you don't agree, to say that X is supported by other positions, here they are, and here is why.

Not just nonsense like, "Or they aren't..."

 

[JIMINZ]

I didn't say you had to register as a specific party member. No one said that.

Anyone can vote as an independent and never indicate a party preference at all, so long as you don't vote in primaries. But I think we should vote.

.
That's just fine you go right ahead and vote, but when whoever you put into office does't do or does the opposite of what you sent him there to do, don't complain about him.

1 Sam. 8:18
And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

 

[tulc]

You rarely say anything, take any position (except "Trump is bad").

and he is.

Support your positions. Don't simply assert them. What's the point of that? Not reading the entire thread back, but if someone asserts that X is the Christian position and supports that, the burden shifts to you, if you don't agree, to say that X is supported by other positions, here they are, and here is why.

When someone else supports their position I do. But if they feel no need to support their position (not an uncommon practice) I usually apply Hitchens's Razor to it and see how they react.

Not just nonsense like, "Or they aren't..."

I'm pretty sure that it's ok for me to post that if I feel that's the response it needs.
tulc(is going to need more coffee soonish)