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Is it 'normal' for believers to have friends?

Paidiske

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As a church leader, I encourage people to build relationships based on mutual respect; which means that how friendships function is a negotiated reality, involving the needs, wants, preferences and boundaries of all parties being taken into account; not something one person decides and then imposes on others (or complains when others don't meet the expectation).
 
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StillGods

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Yes I largely agree but our love for each other is meant to be attractive to the world as Jesus says in John 17.

Family love strikes a chord with the unsaved and they have a feeling about coming home as they travel towards fellowship.

yes it is, but I guess it's good to remember loving someone can be letting them be, and letting them keep their boundaries too so they feel safe.
personally I feel threatened by too much 'love' having been in a cult like group previously 'family love' is an incredibly threatening thing as a concept for me though God has healed me a great deal in a church that didnt push fellowship on me. I need my space to feel safe. being led by the Lord is really important because we never know where someone has come from.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Are you assuming that
a) the way the church operated in early Acts was perfect?
b) the way the church operated in Acts needs no adaptation to our own cultural and social context?

a) NO

b) Not if 'adaption' results in the family heart of the gospel to be excluded from the model.
 
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Carl Emerson

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yes it is, but I guess it's good to remember loving someone can be letting them be, and letting them keep their boundaries too so they feel safe.
personally I feel threatened by too much 'love' having been in a cult like group previously 'family love' is an incredibly threatening thing as a concept for me though God has healed me a great deal in a church that didnt push fellowship on me. I need my space to feel safe. being led by the Lord is really important because we never know where someone has come from.

Yes of course, but cults don't operate on the real Love of Jesus. Love never pushes.
 
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Paidiske

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b) Not if 'adaption' results in the family heart of the gospel to be excluded from the model.

I still think that this notion of "family" needs a heck of a lot of unpacking. We saw an example in this thread; it seems for you, "family" means impromptu visiting.

Now I can tell you, I don't want an impromptu visit from my own mother; so whose model of "family" should we operate on? Yours, mine, or something mutually agreed? If it's the latter, then why complain of a lack of something which might not suit everyone concerned?

That's just one example of what would be many, many instances across a community's life.

Edited to add: this is the sort of work we often do with couples in marriage preparation; exploring the expectations they have brought with them from their families of origin, how they differ (because they always do!), and how they negotiate what will be the norm in their new family. In some ways, forming a church family (if that's the language you want to use) is no different; it can't just be a matter of one person's expectations being met; there needs to be communication, negotiation and agreed ways forward.
 
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Psalm 27

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It's still happening.

You may not see it happening in the West, but the West is not the totality of the Body of Christ. The West is not even the most energetic limb of the Body of Christ. Over the last 50 years, a Great Awakening has been happening in the Far East, and it's been creeping Westward.
At least its on its way
 
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aiki

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This was never about church leaders specifically but the lack of family in Church life.

Frankly I think it is appalling and a travesty that some defend the impersonal setup that many churches suffer under. No wonder the church is not seen as attractive to the world.
Jesus spoke about a visible unity that healthy fellowship has and some argue we don't need it - who do we believe?

I've been going back-and-forth with the Elders at my church about the basis upon which community among believers is established and formed. A while ago, a sort of "sales job" was done on the congregation when, from the pulpit, one of the Elders tried to sell the congregation on Christian community: "You'll grow," "You'll be happier," "You'll connect," "You'll have a fuller, richer life of interactions with others," etc. Despite this effort to motivate connection via self-interest, the congregation has remained unmoved, content to meet together as strangers each Sunday morning, mostly ignoring one another the rest of the week.

Self-interest is just about the worst motive for Christian community I can think of. Appealing to a consumerist attitude in one's congregation in motivating them to interaction with one another is always going to produce correspondingly self-interested attitudes and conduct in them. You sure can't get to the Christ-centered, crucified life that is vital to healthy Christian community by way of appeals to the "What do I get out of it?" attitude. Move a bunch of folk together into community who are chiefly looking to extract from each other, to take from one another, and they soon come to realize that they can't get much of anything from the community. No one is looking to give, only to receive, and the selfish motive for community is frustrated, leading to contention, resentment, hatred and community fractures.

Really, human communities form around just about anything: sex, hobbies, sports, reading interests, political ideologies, careers, age, musical preferences, and on and on. In these communities, the self-focused Christian can serve themselves, their interests and preferences, perfectly well. Why, then, invest in the Church? What can it offer that these other communities cannot? The answer of Scripture isn't "self-esteem," or "happiness," or mere " human connection," but Jesus Christ. He is the Foundation, the "glue," that adheres believers to one another. And he calls all of his own to a life of Self-death, of self-denial, of sacrifice for the sake of others. (Matthew 16:24-25; John 12:24-25; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 5:24; Romans 6:1-11; Colossians 3:1-3, 1 John 4:7-11, etc.)

When the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), the Holy Spirit, is drawing believers together in humble submission to himself and in loving service to one another, the Church is a powerhouse of spiritual life and work. When the Holy Spirit is in control of the individual members of a community of believers, they are able to serve one another in self-sacrificing love with joy, and persistence, and peace. The Spirit deeply unites believers to one another, His presence in each believer drawing them all together.

And so, when a community of professing Christians is cold, self-focused, and spiritually-impotent it is always because Self, not the Spirit, is in control of the community. Such a community has nothing to offer the World that is looking on. A listening ear may be found in all sorts of venues outside the Church; a convergence of likes and dislikes among people may be located in any number of places outside the Church; distractions and entertainments far exceed anything the Church can offer. The only thing the Church can offer that the World cannot is Christ.
 
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StillGods

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Yes of course, but cults don't operate on the real Love of Jesus. Love never pushes.

yes I agree,...the cult like group I was in previously was a church group sadly, did a lot of damage but God has healed a lot. this is my point i guess, that we need to be led by the Lord because the church is not perfect and never will be in this life.

I think God gives us glimpses of what it can be (like you with that selfless pastor person). I think God also uses cracked vessels to shine His light through. we can mourn that the church is not what it could be and pray for the church but expecting perfection is only going to bring disappointment and judgment and disillusion.
but thankfully God loves the church as she is unconditionally.
 
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timf

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Here is a ten minute video of Francis Chan making observations about his experiences with a lack of fellowship in church.


Francis would be the first to admit that he is not as knowledgeable as he would like. And he is not my go to guy for doctrine. But he has a sincere heart for the Lord and is a gifted speaker.
 
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Carl Emerson

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it seems for you, "family" means impromptu visiting.

It can include this - my point was to gather information on any evidence of church leaders visiting the homes of congregants. I wanted to exclude visits that were simply a formality.

I note no readers have evidenced this...
 
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RDKirk

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It can include this - my point was to gather information on any evidence of church leaders visiting the homes of congregants. I wanted to exclude visits that were simply a formality.

Isn't that rather like expecting the Apostles to wait tables?
 
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RDKirk

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No...

My reference is always to 'church leaders'

You don't believe the Apostles were leaders of the Church?

The church at Jerusalem had about 5,000 members.

My church has 4,000 members and 13 leaders. How often do they have to visit members for it to be more than a formality? Do they each have to visit all the members, or can they divide up the membership among themselves? Do you expect all of them to be "drop by anytime" friends with all the membership? Do you expect all 4,000 members to be "drop by anytime" friends with them?
 
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Carl Emerson

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You don't believe the Apostles were leaders of the Church?

The church at Jerusalem had about 5,000 members.

My church has 4,000 members and 13 leaders. How often do they have to visit members for it to be more than a formality? Do they each have to visit all the members, or can they divide up the membership among themselves? Do you expect all of them to be "drop by anytime" friends with all the membership? Do you expect all 4,000 members to be "drop by anytime" friends with them?

Why do you keep falsely stating what I believe?

Do church adherents get home visits ?

No one has confirmed this.

It was common back in the day.

The absence of such visits indicates a shift away from the concept of church being family.
 
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RDKirk

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Why do you keep falsely stating what I believe?


I didn't make a statement, I clearly asked a question. But I guess you didn't get my reference to the Apostles waiting tables.

Do church adherents get home visits ?

No one has confirmed this.

It was common back in the day.

The absence of such visits indicates a shift away from the concept of church being family.

We don't know for sure that the Apostles--who were church leaders--made home visits. We see that they devoted their time to teaching at the temple, and that they appointed others to "wait tables." That suggests to me that they didn't spend a lot of time in home visits.

Certainly, many other members visited each other, but there is no scriptural assertion that the Apostles made it around to everyone's home. You haven't confirmed that.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I didn't make a statement, I clearly asked a question. But I guess you didn't get my reference to the Apostles waiting tables.



We don't know for sure that the Apostles--who were church leaders--made home visits. We see that they devoted their time to teaching at the temple, and that they appointed others to "wait tables." That suggests to me that they didn't spend a lot of time in home visits.

Certainly, many other members visited each other, but there is no scriptural assertion that the Apostles made it around to everyone's home. You haven't confirmed that.

You are doing it again...

I have never said Apostles made home visits.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Lets stick to topic...

Church leaders at any level don't make home visits these days.

This is evidence of a move away from Church being family.

This means adherents are institutionally connected but don't often form friendships.

Readers have not evidenced home visits being made.
 
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