Is it necessary for a Charismatic of any following to manifest signs?

[Strong in Him]

Let me be of assistance.

Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

What’s the power for?


To be witnesses.

I don't dispute that.

 

[hislegacy]

I don't dispute that.

Wonderful! Thank you.

My opinion - if you do not need the gift (perhaps because of lack of use), there is no reason for the gift to manifest.

 

[tturt]

"God’s marvelous grace imparts to each one of us varying gifts and ministries that are uniquely ours. So if God has given you the grace-gift of prophecy, you must activate your gift by using the proportion of faith you have to prophesy." Rom 12:6

 

[Strong in Him]

Wonderful! Thank you.

My opinion - if you do not need the gift (perhaps because of lack of use), there is no reason for the gift to manifest.

Maybe.

We all need the Holy Spirit; without him we are not assured that we are God's children, will not be able to bear fruit, will not be able to know God, his will or walk in his light, will not have the gifts we need to serve him - and the Spirit prays for us when we do not know how to.
But this is not the same as saying that we all need, or will be able, to do signs and wonders. And the OP asked if it was necessary for us to do this.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Just for clarification and thanks everyone for the responses thus far! I am not implying gifts and signs are false, nor that those who display them are automatically faking them. Rather just to start a discussion about how healthy it is to pressure others into the use of such.

As I stated originally, I attended a church that taught congregants how to pray in tongues. Another that said if you asked for healing and you werent healed then you lacked faith, so people would pretend to need healing so they could act like super faithful. Etc.

Such behavior only gives reason to outsiders to doubt and its certainly not helpful imo.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Just for clarification and thanks everyone for the responses thus far! I am not implying gifts and signs are false, nor that those who display them are automatically faking them. Rather just to start a discussion about how healthy it is to pressure others into the use of such.

As I stated originally, I attended a church that taught congregants how to pray in tongues. Another that said if you asked for healing and you werent healed then you lacked faith, so people would pretend to need healing so they could act like super faithful. Etc.

Such behavior only gives reason to outsiders to doubt and its certainly not helpful imo.

I have been in WoF for over 45 years. I have never heard anyone actually say "the reason you are not healed is because you lack faith." I suppose there are... but apart from anecdotal references, I have never heard it.
As far as teaching people how to speak in tongues... I have written several books on the subject, and I proceed from the position that everyone who has received the Holy Spirit can speak in new tongues. They can... but for whatever reason they are not actually doing it. Most of the time it is because they expect something other than what the scripture says. They expect to be taken over like a medium and speak in some known language. I go even further and will say that you do speak in tongues... you just do not realize what you are doing when you do it. It may be in very simple form... but essentially, any sounding from the Spirit is speaking in tongues. Even just a groan or a sigh.

A song the Spirit gave me many years ago:

Is there a song somewhere in you
that could be sung
a word of truth
for a comfortless one

All the love you have
hiding deep within
is needed somewhere
in this world of sin

And don't tell me
your cupboard is bare
you've got something there
that's extremely rare

Like a fine golden bowl
and a silver cord
you are part of Him
you can well afford

To give of what you got
you won't run dry
a word or groan
or even a sigh

A simple little word
of utterance
can raise up the dead
and make him dance!

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

but essentially, any sounding from the Spirit is speaking in tongues. Even just a groan or a sigh.

That falls rather short of miraculous.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

That falls rather short of miraculous.

Romans 8:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

P. C. Nelson, a scholar of the Greek, said that the Greek literally reads here, 'The Holy Ghost maketh
intercession for us in groanings that cannot be uttered in articulate speech.'

 

[hislegacy]

As I stated originally, I attended a church that taught congregants how to pray in tongues. Another that said if you asked for healing and you werent healed then you lacked faith, so people would pretend to need healing so they could act like super faithful. Etc.

Such behavior only gives reason to outsiders to doubt and its certainly not helpful imo.

Sometimes, if we cannot get past bad teaching, it's time to kick the dirt off your feet and move on. Certainly there are other churches in your area.

Like Dids, I have been Word of Faith since 1990. I have been in WoF for over 29 years. I have never heard anyone actually say "the reason you are not healed is because you lack faith." I suppose there are... but apart from anecdotal references, I have never heard it. Not from leadership, not in years of Healing School, not in the Word of Faith churches I have attended or ministered in in the US or overseas.

The manifestations of the Spirit (gifts) are for the work of the Ministry. Tongues is unique because of the different ways scripture clearly speaks of. It isn't something to stress over. A person's personal relationship with Jesus is what is important. Everything else is just a result of that relationship.

 

[Blade]

" Charismatic teachings " I really dislike names.. any. You know like the "ISM's". And 1 Corinthians 12 tell us about those gifts and how HE through us uses them. Take His word for it. The "signs" shall follow them that believe. God is no light switch we turn off and on. He is always on.

The gifts don't come by witnessing. These signs shall follow them that believe.. cast out demons.. lay hands on the sick.. on and on. And so many GIFTS walk with some office.. as in preacher.. or Apostle or prophet.

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

You shall receive power after that, the Holy Ghost is come on you. AND you shall be.. etc. You ask the Father for the Holy Spirit.. He gives it to any that ask. And. you receive power. So.. at home.. or work or School.. or Church or on the street. You still have that power.. aka HIM! And where ever you are or go.. HE not you.. HE uses you with those gifts. It is ALWAYS to give HIM glory.. to point to HIM to help encourage.. all for Him.

And.. the 120.. Christ rose.. went up. They were ALL saved. If they had chosen not to wait as He said.. they were still SAVED! So because some dont believe in the gifts they are saved! Do what the WORD says.. not what any man or me says. Jesus is real.. we only answer to Him. We are not here to please man. He is your lord and savior. He is your GOD no me or any man. And He never ever ever makes you feel bad or guilty..ever. He is for you.. ask HIM about ANYTHING you don't understand.. KNOW He hears you.. WAIT ON HIM! As we ask people questions.. dont just walk off do we? No.. we wait for them to answer.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

When the disciples experienced the pouring out of the Holy Ghost in the upper room, they did not hide away up there. They flooded out into the streets where others could hear and see what was happening. If you are not manifesting... it could mean you are still in the upper room.

 

[hislegacy]

When the disciples experienced the pouring out of the Holy Ghost in the upper room, they did not hide away up there. The flooded out into the streets where others could hear and see what was happening. If you are not manifesting... it could mean you are still in the upper room.

QFT

 

[hislegacy]

and ye shall be witnesses unto me

QFT

 

[Alithis]

So a lot is made about fruit bearing, and giving evidence. I am sure I know how this will turn out, but really just curious for discussion sake. And as a "re-introduction" to the forum, I've been AFK for a bit:

Does a person that follows Charismatic teachings and agrees doctrinally with their respective group need to manifest signs or gifts? Tongues, Healings, Discernment of Spirits, etc.

The point of my question is to really examine if Charismatic groups are/can be a bit elitist and actually cause congregants to display false signs. You know, pressure them so greatly into "if you don't display you aren't one of us" that they fake tongues, or fake a healing, etc.

Then the followup is that the Christlike behavior we are to portray?

Signs for the sake of signs?
=Vanity.

I do not lay hands on the sick to see or show off a sign of healing.
But so they can be healed and free from suffering.

I do not command devils go out of a person and see them thrown to the ground thrashing to show off a sign, but so that the work of the enemy in that persons life might be destroyed and that person set free..

I have no interest in shaking and quivering and laughing in view of others so they can SEE me being all spiritual. For the Lord brought me to repentance from such spiritual pride and wickedness.
Walking in the power of the Holy spirit is nothing to do with froth and bubble and show. But rather living out obedience ...Go and love people
Heal the sick speak the gospel drive out devils baptise in jesus name and teach them to do the same ( aka make more disciples)
Do it because we love JESUS.
No other reason.

 

[Strong in Him]

Signs for the sake of signs?
=Vanity.

I do not lay hands on the sick to see or show off a sign of healing.
But so they can be healed and free from suffering.

Glad to hear it.

Walking in the power of the Holy spirit is nothing to do with froth and bubble and show. But rather living out obedience ...Go and love people

Yes.
But the whole point is that we do not NEED to be doing signs and wonders to show our love or obey and serve the Lord.
Some Christians have never done a "wonder" in their lives, (though it is not them that would do it, but the Lord) - yet they show their love by feeding the poor, helping the neglected, comforting/visiting the sick and listening to, and affirming, the outcast, downtrodden and weak in society - just like Jesus did.

 

[Alithis]

Glad to hear it.



Yes.
But the whole point is that we do not NEED to be doing signs and wonders to show our love or obey and serve the Lord.
Some Christians have never done a "wonder" in their lives, (though it is not them that would do it, but the Lord) - yet they show their love by feeding the poor, helping the neglected, comforting/visiting the sick and listening to, and affirming, the outcast, downtrodden and weak in society - just like Jesus did.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Just like Jesus did.???
Hmm ya need to think THAT through.

 

[mourningdove~]

Glad to hear it.



Yes.
But the whole point is that we do not NEED to be doing signs and wonders to show our love or obey and serve the Lord.
Some Christians have never done a "wonder" in their lives, (though it is not them that would do it, but the Lord) - yet they show their love by feeding the poor, helping the neglected, comforting/visiting the sick and listening to, and affirming, the outcast, downtrodden and weak in society - just like Jesus did.

If we live our lives submitted to God …
committed to following all He asks, in obedience …
we will do signs and wonders and more,
how and when HE wants them done.

Any 'beating persons over the head' …
with the message that all MUST be doing signs and wonders, etc. …
'or else' they are not saved, they are not true followers of Jesus …
they are not baptized in the Spirit, and on and on ...
is based in ignorance or spiritual immaturity …
or pride or judgmentalism …
or demonic influence …
or some combination of those things ...
but not in God.

God is love.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Love.
Those truly walking with God, will love …

… whether that means working signs and wonders …
healing the sick … casting out demons ...
giving the next door neighbor a bag of groceries because they are in need …
babysitting for the tired young mother in need of a break …
giving a sack lunch to a poor man on the street corner ...
et cetera ...

I think we do well, to remember this:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord,
did we not prophesy in your name
and in your name drive out demons
and in your name perform many miracles?
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
~Mark 7:21-23

And this:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied:
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
~ Matthew 22:36-40

And lastly:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value.
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."
~ Galatians 5:6

The 'sign' of a "Charismatic", Spirit-filled believer?
Love.

Where the Holy Spirit is present …
and free to flow thru the life of an individual …
we will 'see' love ...

 

[Strong in Him]

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

I never said otherwise.

Just like Jesus did.???
Hmm ya need to think THAT through.

No; you need to read what I said - which was that we feed the hungry, care for the poor, underprivileged etc just as Jesus did.

You seem to be saying "just as Jesus did; that means we HAVE to do miracles or we are not doing as he did." That's your interpretation; not mine.

 

[Strong in Him]

If we live our lives submitted to God …
committed to following all He asks, in obedience …
we will do signs and wonders and more,
how and when HE wants them done.

If he wants to do signs and wonders through us, he can; at any time.
If signs and wonders automatically followed the preaching of the Gospel, there'd have been a revival in many churches by now.
The Lord didn't need our help, our faith or our permission to create us, die for us and save us - and he doesn't need it to heal through us and our prayers.

Any 'beating persons over the head' …
with the message that all MUST be doing signs and wonders, etc. …
'or else' they are not saved, they are not true followers of Jesus …
they are not baptized in the Spirit, and on and on ...
is based in ignorance or spiritual immaturity …

Agreed

God is love.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Love.
Those truly walking with God, will love …

… whether that means working signs and wonders …
healing the sick … casting out demons ...
giving the next door neighbor a bag of groceries because they are in need …
babysitting for the tired young mother in need of a break …
giving a sack lunch to a poor man on the street corner ...
et cetera ...

Exactly.

God provides and heals; it may be immediately and miraculously or it may be through our provision/practical help.
The former is not greater than the latter, and certainly not a sign of more faith.

The 'sign' of a "Charismatic", Spirit-filled believer?
Love.

Amen.
Jesus said that all people would know we are his disciples if we love one another - not if we do half a dozen miracles before tea time.

 

[Alithis]

If we live our lives submitted to God …
committed to following all He asks, in obedience …
we will do signs and wonders and more,
how and when HE wants them done.

Any 'beating persons over the head' …
with the message that all MUST be doing signs and wonders, etc. …
'or else' they are not saved, they are not true followers of Jesus …
they are not baptized in the Spirit, and on and on ...
is based in ignorance or spiritual immaturity …
or pride or judgmentalism …
or demonic influence …
or some combination of those things ...
but not in God.

God is love.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Love.
Those truly walking with God, will love …

… whether that means working signs and wonders …
healing the sick … casting out demons ...
giving the next door neighbor a bag of groceries because they are in need …
babysitting for the tired young mother in need of a break …
giving a sack lunch to a poor man on the street corner ...
et cetera ...

I think we do well, to remember this:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord,
did we not prophesy in your name
and in your name drive out demons
and in your name perform many miracles?
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
~Mark 7:21-23

And this:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied:
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
~ Matthew 22:36-40

And lastly:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value.
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."
~ Galatians 5:6

The 'sign' of a "Charismatic", Spirit-filled believer?
Love.

Where the Holy Spirit is present …
and free to flow thru the life of an individual …
we will 'see' love ...

And where you see Godly love you will see the power of God manifest...for God IS love.