Is it just me, or----

[mjmcmillan]

Is it possible that others wonder why people-- Christian people-- get tripped up over legalism??

There have been a couple of people posting here that I know about that have problems partly because they're trying to lead a legalistic Christianity. One person is convinced she's going to Hell because God won't forgive her for starting divorce proceedings against an abusive husband, even though she's since tried (and failed) to stop it. Reason: she's beating herself over the head with the Law. There's another that's in the process of making trouble for herself over legalisms, and has posted the same thread in two different sub-forums here.

Now, I post scripture verses about as often as I start threads (this is my second since I've been here, and you can count all the threads I've ever started anywhere in ten years and not run out of fingers--- no thumbs needed), so I probably won't give chapter and verse here, but you'll get the general idea soon enough.

There's a passage in Collosians where Paul leans on the people of Collosus about going back to legalism AFTER having heard about the Grace of God through Jesus our Lord. There's another passage--- the numbered books of John I think, but I'd have to look it up to be sure--- where it says the Letter of the Law kills, but the Spirit gives life. Another passage carries a warning that anybody who would try to live a legalistic Christianity needs to pay special attention to. It states that if you try to live by the Law, but break any part of it, you become guilty of breaking the whole Law.

So, I have to ask. If the people for whom the Law was originally written cannot keep it--- and indeed, both history and the Bible itself shows they were never able to do it--- what makes you think you can do it? If you could keep the Law, and so live by it, why would Jesus need to die for you? Why pound yourself over the head because you failed to be able to do something that only one person in History--- Jesus the Christ-- has ever been able to do?

I am not able to save myself by keeping the Law. I cannot save anybody else by insisting on adherence to the Law. It is written that it is by grace through faith that we are saved--- and even that faith isn't of ourselves, it is the gift of God--- not by keeping the Law-- not by works--- so we can't boast as though our salvation is of our own hand.

So, if you're trying to be legalistic- give it a rest. Your salvation isn't by way of the Law, but by way of God's grace and mercy. It has been said that God's mercy is that I don't get what I deserve, and His grace is that he gives me what I don't deserve. Keep that in mind, nobody now living on this Earth deserves anything good from God, we all deserve His judgment. He extends mercy to us and doesn't give us the judgment we deserve, but instead gives us the breaks we don't deserve.

OK, I'm off of my soapbox. For now.

________________________________________
Religion is for those who want to avoid going to Hell.
God's Grace is for those of us who have been there.

 

[dayhiker]

MjMc,
Very good point. And OH so true.
Problem is that legalists can't really see that they are legalists. Then if they ever get to see that they are legalists they are sure if they drop one point of their belief system their whole house of cards will fall down. Its a real tough place to be. Also its often that view of life, that world view, that was often a big part of when made Christ real to them. They can't just give it a rest I fear.
I pray they will let God build a new house with a foundation of love under them tho.

dayhiker

 

[foodiepeep]

Okay mjm- I get it. I'm a nuisance..I'm sorry.

BTW- I have OCD, and that makes it extremely difficult for me to deal with this situation without having intense confusion. I'm a legalistic Christian as a result of having the disorder. I'm in a catch-22.

 

[mjmcmillan]

Okay mjm- I get it. I'm a nuisance..I'm sorry.

Nope, you're not a nuisance. I just don't want to see you beating yourself up trying to do something that can't be done--- by anybody who isn't Jesus the Christ. Relax a bit, and rest in what He has already done for you. Yes, you sinned--- who amongst us hasn't? But, John wrote in his numbered books that if we repent--- which you've tried to do repeatedly-- He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Maybe you don't "feel it" right now, but trust the Written Word that it is so, and rest in what He has done for you.

If I could, I would give you a hug. But, some thousand miles or so make that a bit difficult-- my arms aren't that long. I'm not sure a "smilie hug" is the same thing.

Quick edit. Foodie, I think I understand a bit about the OCD. I have a brother who suffers from something similar, as well as a few other health issues he has. I've written about him elsewhere, asking for prayer for him after he suffered a stroke. He's recovered from the worst of the stroke, but the other issues he's alway had remain.

 

[dayhiker]

foodie,
Do you understand why OCD leads to legalist vuews/behavior? I'm very ignorant of such things.

dayhiker

 

[DrFrank]

Yes grace and forgiveness are important Christian concepts that become operative AFTER WE STOP SINNING AND VIOLATING THE LAW.Of course no one can be forgiven if they continue in the same sin.God is hyper-sensitive about hypocrisy.

Tragically Foodiepeep has been tragically attacked over the non-exist sin of obtaining a divorce.As long as she remains single and doesn't commit the serious sin of re-marrying,she'll be just fine spiritually.

 

[foodiepeep]

foodie,
Do you understand why OCD leads to legalist vuews/behavior? I'm very ignorant of such things.

dayhiker

dayhiker-

Indeed I do..I'm a former psychology major, and ironically, while I fully comprehend the *reasons* behind my OCD, I'm still not able to relieve myself of the symptoms. The form I have, with respect to my divorce and all the worrying- is called "Pure Obsession".

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

Yes grace and forgiveness are important Christian concepts that become operative AFTER WE STOP SINNING AND VIOLATING THE LAW.Of course no one can be forgiven if they continue in the same sin.God is hyper-sensitive about hypocrisy.

Tragically Foodiepeep has been tragically attacked over the non-exist sin of obtaining a divorce.As long as she remains single and doesn't commit the serious sin of re-marrying,she'll be just fine spiritually.

Uuuhhmmmm No...that's the whole problem we CAN'T stop sinning. If we could do it on our own, there would be no reason for Jesus to die on the cross for us. And here's another thing He died for ALL our sins even the ones we haven't committed yet, cuz guess what? He KNOWS us and knows what sins we will and won't commit and He loves us ANYWAY. Grace and Forgiveness comes because He FIRST loved us and CHOSE us and made a way for us to be saved and be with Him Eternally.

 

[mjmcmillan]

I want to be a fly on the wall in Dr Frank's house. Better still, for one day be able to read his mind. I could well imagine that he's much like the rest of us when you get right down to it---- in full need of God's mercy.

Until then.... Dr Frank, how did you ever manage to stop sinning? Since sin starts in the heart/mind and comes out from there, how did you stop sin in your heart? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[dayhiker]

Dr. Frank .. maybe you can answer me a question. The 2nd commandment is to love one another. Its just like the geratest commandment to love God with all our heart, etc. Most of us consider marriage to be the greatest human example of love. So how can getting married be a "serious sin?"

dayhiker

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

dayhiker...I think he is saying that if she RE-marries THAT would be a sin. Doesn't make him right lol, just what I THINK he was saying.

 

[dayhiker]

Yup, I'm pretty sure that is what he's saying. Ya, I didn't want to come right out and say he wasn't right ...

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

Yup, I'm pretty sure that is what he's saying. Ya, I didn't want to come right out and say he wasn't right ...

Like I did? lol

 

[mjmcmillan]

I've been thinking there's maybe more serious trouble afoot.

The problem with some legal types is that they become so convinced of their legalisms that they don't see pride creeping in, and as we all know pride is a sin.

I'm thinking lately of that parable about the Pharisee and the tax collector. It's in Luke, if I remember right, and the gist of the thing is that the Pharisee was so glad that he wasn't like other men. Pharisees knew the Law backwards and frontwards and sideways, if anybody could keep the Law you'd think it would be them. The problem is that pride had crept in, and the Pharisee was boasting about his righteousness as if it was all the product of his own doing.

In the meantime, the sinner was off in the corner, not even looking up, but pleading with God to have mercy on him, a sinner.

Guess which man won Jesus' approval.

I fancy it may be as hard for a rigid keeper of the Law to get into the Kingdom as it is for a rich man, and for very much the same reasons. The keeper of the Law gets to the point where he depends on his own righteousness, and the rich man learns to depend on money, rather than depending on God. The sinner who recognizes his true condition, and the poor man who recognizes that "give us this day our daily bread" is the only way his family will eat that day, are both recognizing that their condition is entirely dependent on God for a favorable outcome.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

I've been thinking there's maybe more serious trouble afoot.

The problem with some legal types is that they become so convinced of their legalisms that they don't see pride creeping in, and as we all know pride is a sin.

I'm thinking lately of that parable about the Pharisee and the tax collector. It's in Luke, if I remember right, and the gist of the thing is that the Pharisee was so glad that he wasn't like other men. Pharisees knew the Law backwards and frontwards and sideways, if anybody could keep the Law you'd think it would be them. The problem is that pride had crept in, and the Pharisee was boasting about his righteousness as if it was all the product of his own doing.

In the meantime, the sinner was off in the corner, not even looking up, but pleading with God to have mercy on him, a sinner.

Guess which man won Jesus' approval.

I fancy it may be as hard for a rigid keeper of the Law to get into the Kingdom as it is for a rich man, and for very much the same reasons. The keeper of the Law gets to the point where he depends on his own righteousness, and the rich man learns to depend on money, rather than depending on God. The sinner who recognizes his true condition, and the poor man who recognizes that "give us this day our daily bread" is the only way his family will eat that day, are both recognizing that their condition is entirely dependent on God for a favorable outcome.

If a man does not recognize his need for a Savior and accept Jesus Christ as his Savior, he will be judged by what he does or doesn't do and we all know we cannot afford to pay for all our sins on our own. You are right about the Pride thing, after all, Pride was the first sin....Lucifer wanted to BE God and thought he could And that's where Pride came in....BTW the story you are referring to is Luke 18:10-14 and in verse 14 Jesus says "I tell you, this man (the tax collector) went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exalted."