Is it inevitable?

[akolouthein]

I'm having a hard time being a member of the ELCA right now. They shot down the actively homosexual clergy vote and approval of gay marriage vote, for now, and then , i feel, slap us with a gender neutral hymnal. My wife's family were all raised in the ELCA and we talk about this alot. I just have a feeling a split is inevitable but they disagree. In their defense , they know much more about the ELCA and have grown up in it. I received an email from the Lutheran Journal of Ethics with an article of yet another person justifying homosexual ordination in the church (it seems to me). Please feel free to check it out here. Look , I'm not here to debate, if you think homosexuals should be allowed to be ministers then more power to ya, have fun. I just want to know where people think the ELCA is going and do you think it will be divided sooner or later. It seems to me that articles like this just let us know the fight is far from over.

http://www.elca.org/scriptlib/dcs/jle/article.asp?aid=604

 

[cableguy]

Did the ELCA provide a counter argument to this essay?

 

[akolouthein]

Did the ELCA provide a counter argument to this essay?

No sir, not that I am aware of. If so I would love to see it. I will be honest is saying I have no idea if the Lutheran Journal of Ethics is formally associated with the ELCA or is just a general Lutheran magazine. I think I assumed it was associated with the ELCA because the link in my email came from the ELCA's website. If they are associated with the ELCA I suppose I find it odd this article made it into publication but perhaps they feel that side of the argument STILL needs to be heard . I'm having a hard time right now and I can't seem to get many members of the ELCA to talk about this. It seems to be kind of a taboo thing like "well they voted on it so maybe it will just go away." I don't think so. I think this fight is loooong from over.

 

[akolouthein]

I suppose they are associated. I took the time to check real fast and this is what their website says:

JLE is published by the Department for Studies of the Division for Church in Society of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). It speaks out of the ELCA’s "Confession of Faith" and seeks to enhance its life and mission in society by offering an open forum to clarify, deepen, and enliven Lutheran ethics.

It does say it is an open forum so perhaps they publish most anything to do with Lutheran ethics. I'm not "damning" the magazine per se, just noticing that the subject is far from over.

 

[cableguy]

Yeesh. You'd think if they put something like that in they'd have an essay from a conservative point of view, like maybe an essay from the folks at WordAlone....it is an open forum isn't it?

This issue isn't Tabboo to anyone, I don't think, on this forum. The challenge is trying to write something that hasn't already been said. Give it some time, you'll have somebody (Danhead?) pick apart the essay you linked here. In responce I'm sure you''ll have some one put a defence in for it.

 

[akolouthein]

Yeesh. You'd think if they put something like that in they'd have an essay from a conservative point of view, like maybe an essay from the folks at WordAlone....it is an open forum isn't it?

This issue isn't Tabboo to anyone, I don't think, on this forum. The challenge is trying to write something that hasn't already been said. Give it some time, you'll have somebody (Danhead?) pick apart the essay you linked here. In responce I'm sure you''ll have some one put a defence in for it.

I hope so , thanks .

 

[cableguy]

Here's a good link for you, a counter argument if you will. Very good article.

http://www.wordalone.org/nr/observations-2005.htm

 

[Protoevangel]

Give it some time, you'll have somebody (Danhead?) pick apart the essay you linked here.

Gee, my reputation preceeds me?

 

[akolouthein]

Here's a good link for you, a counter argument if you will. Very good article.

http://www.wordalone.org/nr/observations-2005.htm

Thanks for the article mate. I would really like to hear from some here what they are feeling the future of the ELCA will be.

 

[Protoevangel]

The future of the ELCA?

Short term, I don't think anything drastic will happen. I think we will continure to slowly loose members and congregations. These issues will resurface. Just like last time, the ELCA will push their agenda regardless of the divisiveness and harm it causes. The issues will eventually be pushed through.

 

[akolouthein]

The future of the ELCA?

Short term, I don't think anything drastic will happen. I think we will continure to slowly loose members and congregations. These issues will resurface. Just like last time, the ELCA will push their agenda regardless of the divisiveness and harm it causes. The issues will eventually be pushed through.

Ack , yea that's what I'm fearing. Oh well I might as well resign myself to the fact that I'm probably going to switch churches. I'm beliving in the Calvanistic truths (my words no offense intended) and in some round about way, God lead me there. Its really sad what is happening to many churches. I'm seeing the beginning of the end starting to form. Whatever the case I'm going to keep praying these issues do not push through.

 

[KEPLER]

Ack , yea that's what I'm fearing. Oh well I might as well resign myself to the fact that I'm probably going to switch churches. I'm beliving in the Calvanistic truths (my words no offense intended) and in some round about way, God lead me there. Its really sad what is happening to many churches. I'm seeing the beginning of the end starting to form. Whatever the case I'm going to keep praying these issues do not push through.

**WARNING** LCMS Lurker Alert (waves White Flag)

I have nothing of debate to say...Just a mention to akolouthein, that in the Presbyterian Churches you will find the same issues and similar struggles as all the Lutherans are struggling with.

ELCA--> PCUSA
LCMS --> PCA
WELS --> OPC (Orthodox PC)

The PCUSA is facing the same kinds of issues as the ELCA. Going to the Calvinists won't solve the problem!

 

[akolouthein]

**WARNING** LCMS Lurker Alert (waves White Flag)

I have nothing of debate to say...Just a mention to akolouthein, that in the Presbyterian Churches you will find the same issues and similar struggles as all the Lutherans are struggling with.

ELCA--> PCUSA
LCMS --> PCA
WELS --> OPC (Orthodox PC)

The PCUSA is facing the same kinds of issues as the ELCA. Going to the Calvinists won't solve the problem!

I'm Going to a PCA church. I researched what their mission statement was before attending. Seems much more conservative. If it wasn't for the 5 points of Calvanism really taking hold of me, I might have considered LCMS.


I remember asking about the differences on the reformed boards and someone said "liberal PCA is better than conservative PCUSA" and I was like . I wanted conservative and that's what I got. Great people there, not that there isn't at the ELCA church. But I've got more than one call and letter appreciating how I came to worship and both pastors are looking forward to sitting down and speaking with me. One has his doctorate and I really look forward to picking his brain. I'm not basing my church decision on these acts of kindness but they are nice.

 

[stumpjumper]

I'm Going to a PCA church. I researched what their mission statement was before attending. Seems much more conservative. If it wasn't for the 5 points of Calvanism really taking hold of me, I might have considered LCMS.

I have an interesting perspective of the difference between ELCA and PCA Churches (you could also throw Catholicism in there as well but then this would be a really long post). I attend an ELCA Church and have been following all the goings on in the synod. My Church is more liberal than conservative and I am generally liberal theologically though not neccessarily socially or politically. Because of that fact, I have had a few conversations with some of the more conservative members of our Church a few of whom have left ELCA because of the recent deliberations.

Theologically a case could be made for allowing homosexuals into the clergy but I know you don't want to get into a discussion about that. What I will say is that those who left our Church over this issue argued primarily social or secular arguments and that was generally main sticking point. Personally, I find that a bit upsetting that they would leave a Church community that they loved because of a social argument. Nothing whatsoever was going to change at our Church ir any Church if the changes were made. The individual Churches still have the ability to call whatever Pastor they wish. Our female is here to stay and so no change would have been expected in our Church.

Anyway, to the PCA my sister attends one in Lancaster County and I have visited a few times. There is very little in common between the reformed theology and ELCA's theology. Her Church teaches Biblical Creation to the children as well as adults. That might be something you would want to look into before you join a PCA, myself I would end up arguing with the Pastor to no end

 

[akolouthein]

I have an interesting perspective of the difference between ELCA and PCA Churches (you could also throw Catholicism in there as well but then this would be a really long post). I attend an ELCA Church and have been following all the goings on in the synod. My Church is more liberal than conservative and I am generally liberal theologically though not neccessarily socially or politically. Because of that fact, I have had a few conversations with some of the more conservative members of our Church a few of whom have left ELCA because of the recent deliberations.

Theologically a case could be made for allowing homosexuals into the clergy but I know you don't want to get into a discussion about that. What I will say is that those who left our Church over this issue argued primarily social or secular arguments and that was generally main sticking point. Personally, I find that a bit upsetting that they would leave a Church community that they loved because of a social argument. Nothing whatsoever was going to change at our Church ir any Church if the changes were made. The individual Churches still have the ability to call whatever Pastor they wish. Our female is here to stay and so no change would have been expected in our Church.

Anyway, to the PCA my sister attends one in Lancaster County and I have visited a few times. There is very little in common between the reformed theology and ELCA's theology. Her Church teaches Biblical Creation to the children as well as adults. That might be something you would want to look into before you join a PCA, myself I would end up arguing with the Pastor to no end

Thank you for your concern. I've been attending one of the PCA churches here and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I've spoken with the pastor and since I've fully adopted the 5 points of Calvinism and the Westminster confession, I have no arguments at all with the church. I am glad to have been led this way because I know it was led by God. I am sure God lead us all in different ways. I hope to keep close contact with the ELCA church that I am currently apart of. I desire to see them grow away from liberal agendas and I really hope I am wrong about the direction the ELCA is headed. There are some very conservative people in that church but they are mostly elderly and after they are gone....Anyway, thanks again for you concern. God bless you and yours.

Grace and peace to you

 

[Fish and Bread]

Just like last time, the ELCA will push their agenda regardless of the divisiveness and harm it causes. The issues will eventually be pushed through.

Isn't the leadership of ELCA representative of the people in the pews? I'm not very familar with how Lutheran denominations are organized, but I thought that the leadership was elected, at least indirectly. If that's the case, isn't it really the people pushing what they view as God's agenda on themselves? I can understand why someone would say a denomination organized around democratic lines might not be following God's theology, but they're certainly following the theology of their membership (Which may or may not be God's) in most cases, aren't they?

John

 

[Tetzel]

LCMS lurker alert*

Have you tried LCMS or WELS?

 

[akolouthein]

LCMS lurker alert*

Have you tried LCMS or WELS?

I thought of trying LCMS but I just have a hard time with the local LCMS having closed communion.

 

[Tetzel]

How can adjusting to a different rule about the administration of a sacrament bother you more than a fundamental theological difference in the view of what the sacrament is?

When I started going to LCMS services instead of ELCA services, I wasn't happy about not getting communion, but at least I knew that when I could get it, it would be the same as before.

 

[Music4Hym777]

FROM A TEENAGE LUTHERAN!!!

Hey Ya'll,

I honestly dont think that it is going to go anywhere. I am part of the Lutheran Student Movement which are basically the next generation of Lutherans and there was a lot of debate about it, but not enough to let it pass through our hands and into the action. The LSM battled it for 6 LONG hours of formal debate! It was rediculous, but the consensus came back that there were not enough people for it to even put it into motion.

Usually the ELCA recognizes the LSM as a pretty big part of what to do since we are the future generation. We have the RIC branch of the ELCA, but they are pretty quiet and as long as you allow them to do their thing they dont make a lot of noise.

In my eyes it is mostly the conservatives that are freaking out and dont want anything to happen to make us any more liberal. If we keep things the way they are, which is how everyone seems to like them and let the RIC keep on going, I dont think we will have any problems with it. It might happen years down the road, but I dont see it happening anytime soon (as in the next 20-30 years).

Just from a Teenage Lutheran,
Monica