Is it faith, works, or both?

[LaSpino3]

It appears there is a contradiction in certain verses of the Bible concerning faith, and works.

Eph.2:8-9, Paul writes, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast." Paul tell us its not of works.

James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

Yet in Heb.11:9-17, It states that Abraham was saved by faith, and James said it was by works.

Explain what appears to be two contradictory statements, and why they are not. Let me give you a hint. Its a time thing, and a perspective.

Phil LaSpino www.seekfirstwisdom.com

 

[Yarddog]

It appears there is a contradiction in certain verses of the Bible concerning faith, and works.

Gal.2:8-9, Paul writes, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast." Paul tell us its not of works.

This is Ephesians 2: 8-9 not Galatians. What one must do to understand the difference between what Paul is saying and what James is saying one needs to look at their approach to the matter. Paul is speaking against trying to justify oneself through "works of the Law".

James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

James is not talking about works of the Law, but works of faith. The Law did not exist when Abraham lived. He simply did what God told him to do and his faith was his works.

Yet in Heb.11:9-17, It states that Abraham was saved by faith, and James said it was by works.

Though Paul contrasts works and faith in Abraham he is talking against the Law as he points out in the prior chapter.

Explain what appears to be two contradictory statements, and why they are not. Let me give you a hint. Its a time thing, and a perspective.

Paul agrees with James in the need to do works but his preaching is against justification through works of the Law while James tells believers don't say that you have faith unless your works show it.

 

[Optimax]

It appears there is a contradiction in certain verses of the Bible concerning faith, and works.

Gal.2:8-9, Paul writes, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast." Paul tell us its not of works.

James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

Yet in Heb.11:9-17, It states that Abraham was saved by faith, and James said it was by works.

Explain what appears to be two contradictory statements, and why they are not. Let me give you a hint. Its a time thing, and a perspective.

Phil LaSpino www.seekfirstwisdom.com

Paul by "works" is referring to the corresponding action that accompanies faith.

If one has not the corresponding action with faith then faith is "dead".

 

[Lion King]

James is not talking about works of the Law, but works of faith. The Law did not exist when Abraham lived. He simply did what God told him to do and his faith was his works.

What do you mean when you say the Law did not exist during Abraham's time? That's surely a head-scratcher, because if what you say is true, then it would also automatically mean that sin did not exist when Abraham lived?

Sin= lawlessness (1 John 3:4 ).

 

[OpenDoor]

The gospel is the gospel of grace. To add works to the gospel is to make the same error that the Galatians made.

 

[Lion King]

The gospel is the gospel of grace. To add works to the gospel is to make the same error that the Galatians made.

It all depends on the works you are referring to..

 

[Partaker of Christ]

Works are the evidence of our claimed faith.

If we say (claim) to have faith in this or faith for that, then it will have evidence by our works.
It is not that we have to do works, but that if we have faith we will have works.

John also shows this truth in 1John.

1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

If you say you have faith that God will provide all your needs, and you see a brother without and he does not have that same faith, then you would without flinching give what you have to meet his needs, knowing full well that God will provide for you.

[FONT=&quot]If not, then your claim is dead faith. It is better to be honest, and say you do not yet have that faith rather than lie. [/FONT]

 

[fhansen]

What do you mean when you say the Law did not exist during Abraham's time? That's surely a head-scratcher, because if what you say is true, then it would also automatically mean that sin did not exist when Abraham lived?

Sin= lawlessness (1 John 3:4 ).

Not really though, the Law is already with us even if not written on tablets of stone:

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Rom 2:12-13

It goes on to say:

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) Rom 2:14-45

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's God's grace, apprehended through the faith He gives us.

Saying we have faith, believing all the right things without putting our faith into practice, however, is deadness and we might as well admit that we have no faith.

As Luther put it, one can no more separate faith from good works as one can separate heat from a flame. Faith does good works.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Yarddog]

What do you mean when you say the Law did not exist during Abraham's time? That's surely a head-scratcher, because if what you say is true, then it would also automatically mean that sin did not exist when Abraham lived?

The Mosaic Law did not come until Sinai and that is what Paul talks about when he refers to works of the Law but sin was in the world before God gave the Law to Moses.
Romans 5:
12. Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.


Abraham didn't rely on what was written on stone tablets, he relied on what God had given him in his heart.

 

[Harry3142]

There is a serious problem with keeping the law, and St. Paul himself wrote quite candidly concerning it:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do - this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! (Romans 7:14-24a,NIV)

What St. Paul described is now called paradoxical intention, and if you are a human being, you are afflicted with it. Psychologists recognize it as a powerful force affecting everything that we say and/or do, and even have to arrange the treatment of their patients so as to account for it. There's also an old saying which describes it and its results: "The harder you try, the faster you fail." Whatever we try to do, we will fail to accomplish. Either it comes as part of our nature, or it will fall victim to this quirk in our psyche.

But what we cannot change through trying, God himself has been able to change through giving us an entirely new nature:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit , let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

Have you ever heard the saying, "He did all the right things, but for all the wrong reasons"? It applies to us as Christians. Not only are we to do what is appropriate for Christians, but we are also to do it for the appropriate reasons. That means that not only are our words and actions to be in accordance with God's will, but the underlying motives behind those words and actions are also to be in accordance with God's will.

And there's only one way to accomplish that, just as there is only one salvation. And that way is to have God himself, through his Spirit, subdue what up until then has been our natural way of being, and then replace what he has subdued with a new nature (the fruit of the Spirit). It is this new nature that enables us to say and do what God truly wants of us, because it is the 'fruit' of this new nature that provides the proper impetus for our speaking and performing as God would have of us. So long as we have those 9 'fruit' as the point of origination for all that we say and do, we have assurance that what we are saying and doing is conforming to God's will ("Against such things there is no law" Galatians 5:23b). We are to see them as the 'borders' within which all that we say and do must have its beginning if it is to be seen as being 'in synch' with what God himself wants of us.

And how do we obtain 'the fruit of the Spirit'? We obtain it by sincerely and humbly accepting God's gift of salvation. It all begins there. We cannot buy it as an asset, or earn it as a salary. Instead, we must accept it while seeing it as yet another gift which God has seen fit to give us, not because we deserve it, but because of his own compassion towards us.

 

[OpenDoor]

It all depends on the works you are referring to..

I would never discourage someone from goods works, but grace is not gained by good works.

 

[Lion King]

Not really though, the Law is already with us even if not written on tablets of stone:

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Rom 2:12-13

It goes on to say:

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) Rom 2:14-45

This does not answer my question. Was the Law of God in existence during Abraham's time? Yes or No?

 

[Lion King]

I would never discourage someone from goods works, but grace is not gained by good works.

How is salvation acquired? How does one get to be in the Kingdom of God?

 

[Lion King]

The Mosaic Law did not come until Sinai and that is what Paul talks about when he refers to works of the Law but sin was in the world before God gave the Law to Moses.
Romans 5:
12. Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.


Abraham didn't rely on what was written on stone tablets, he relied on what God had given him in his heart.

So, are you saying the Law of God was not in existence during Abraham's time? Yes or No?

Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:5



Here's is a simple question for you brother:

Why did the LORD destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Did Sodom break any Law?

 

[Yarddog]

I would never discourage someone from goods works, but grace is not gained by good works.

I'm not sure that is entirely true. Everything that we receive from God is grace, so, if God blesses us because of our good works then we gained grace. Of course, God's grace allowed us to do the works in the first place.

We cannot justify ourselves through works. We need grace. It is God's gift.

 

[Yarddog]

So, are you saying the Law of God was not in existence during Abraham's time? Yes or No?

There was no Mosaic Law in place for Abraham, which Paul continually told the Jews not to put their trust in.

Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:5

There was no written Law in Genesis but anything which God told man to do was a law. God's covenant with Noah also applied to all of his descendants. Anything God told Abraham to do was a command.

Here's is a simple question for you brother:

Why did the LORD destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Did Sodom break any Law?

Well, according to Genesis knowledge of good and evil came to man in Eden so man knew what evil was even though no Law had been written down for man to follow. The evil acts of the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah brought God's wrath.

 

[Lion King]

There was no Mosaic Law in place for Abraham, which Paul continually told the Jews not to put their trust in.

I'm not talking about the Mosaic Law, but the Law of God. Huge difference...

There was no written Law in Genesis but anything which God told man to do was a law. God's covenant with Noah also applied to all of his descendants. Anything God told Abraham to do was a command.

Maybe there was no written Law as you say...but the LAW of God was present even in Genesis. Otherwise, the LORD would not have destroyed the world by water.

Well, according to Genesis knowledge of good and evil came to man in Eden so man knew what evil was even though no Law had been written down for man to follow. The evil acts of the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah brought God's wrath.

Just because there was no written Law does not mean there was no LAW. Cain committed a sin by killing his brother, which means that he broke the LAW of God.

No Law=no sin.

 

[fhansen]

This does not answer my question. Was the Law of God in existence during Abraham's time? Yes or No?

No, not formally. But my point was that this still didn't mean there was no sin. In fact, the bible tells us that sin flourished after the first sin of Adam, prior to the Law being given.

 

[Lion King]

No, not formally. But my point was that this still didn't mean there was no sin. In fact, the bible tells us that sin flourished after the first sin of Adam, prior to the Law being given.

If there was no Law, then God obviously had no reason to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah or the world for that matter. Do you know what sin is? Sin is breaking God's Law.

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

Adam broke God's Law by eating the forbidden fruit, so did Cain by killing his brother.