Is it Ever Okay to Kill

[TheyCallMeDave]

I am aware of the need for correction among believers. I feel that is important to the growth of individuals and for Christianity as a whole. I believe we are instructed to judge what is sin and what is not sin, and by that judgment, we are to live our lives. It is why we are instructed to judge only by those rules that we are willing to be judged by. The type of judging you are referring to now is rebuking, but earlier it seemed to me that you were referring to judging in terms of determining guilt for the purposes of meting out punishment, as Christ will do when He sits in judgment of mankind. When I said that we are not to judge, I was not meaning that we cannot judge a person's behavior to be sinful.



I do not believe an innocent person exists except perhaps in the cases of the unborn and the mentally challenged. I do not see how our current laws play into our discussion at all. Currently abortion is legal, and I cannot imagine an action being any more clearly sinful than abortion. I have not found clear instructions on self-defense in the New Testament, but what I have found is clear instructions as to whom vengeance belongs to, God. We are instructed to not follow an "eye for an eye," and we are told to "turn the other cheek."



I do not believe a Christian ever dies without it being God's will, and I believe that all things work together for those who love the Lord. Even a Christian's death works for his good. My life is in His hands, and I believe I will die when He calls me.



But in the New Testament, He operates differently. God is just, and He will judge and punish those who do not repent. That is a pretty big step away from instructing us to do it for Him though.



I am a human, and as such, I am subject to human emotions. If I were in a position to prevent such things from happening to my mother, or to anyone really, I would be tempted to give in. I pray that I am never in that position, and if I ever am, I pray to have strength to stand firm in my conviction.

I am a fan of justice, but I do not long to see it carried out. I am a sinner, and justly, I deserve damnation. I believe in God's grace. It saved me, and I believe it can save others. I do not long to see it carried out, and I do not believe that I have been called to carry it out. I believe it belongs to God, and He will see that the evil is repaid to the unrepentant.

1. Can u imagine what society would be like if there was no Justice System to judge wrongdoers ?! It is a very good thing we Judge and Punish people who murder and commit other heinous crimes. Your idea of brushing off punishment is absurd and would make society even less safe than what it already is.

2. Jesus himself said Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars...meaning to OBEY the Government and if the GOvernment establishes punishment for crimes willfully committed then we should not fight it.

3. An innocent life taken suddenly and willfully by a Perpertrator is NOT Gods Will ; it is an offense toward God and the Victim. The Perp. in essence is playing God by taking life in accordance to HIS plan and standard. It doesnt matter where the Victim ends up for eternity.

4. God says to support and obey our GOvernment . That means ALL branches of that Government. Unless it violates a law of God, you need to stop defending the Guilty .

5. Your emotions are something the Bible says you cant trust . Its objective law in society which is for all, that you need to obey and quit coming against. The Guilty should be punished and thats been Gods character and nature without compromise.

6. Youre right, Gods mercy CAN save anyone who is a Perpetrator of another. But the consequences of the action must remain and be carried out in the name of Justice, in the character of God himself, and for the betterment of Society to hopefully act as a deterrant.

I think im done with the dialogue, and i hope you come to understand Gods intrinsic nature , character, and person better and then not to waver from that. It will serve you better because youll have the truth in which to follow and have a sure compass in life. End.

 

[Max S Cherry]

1. Can u imagine what society would be like if there was no Justice System to judge wrongdoers ?! It is a very good thing we Judge and Punish people who murder and commit other heinous crimes. Your idea of brushing off punishment is absurd and would make society even less safe than what it already is.

I have not advocated the elimination of our justice system. That is not what I understood our conversation to be about.

2. Jesus himself said Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars...meaning to OBEY the Government and if the GOvernment establishes punishment for crimes willfully committed then we should not fight it.

It means to obey the government only in those instances in which the subject matter is rightly within the purview of the government. It is not a blanket statement requiring us to obey the government whenever it demands obedience.

3. An innocent life taken suddenly and willfully by a Perpertrator is NOT Gods Will ; it is an offense toward God and the Victim. The Perp. in essence is playing God by taking life in accordance to HIS plan and standard. It doesnt matter where the Victim ends up for eternity.

You lay claim to more knowledge than I.

4. God says to support and obey our GOvernment . That means ALL branches of that Government. Unless it violates a law of God, you need to stop defending the Guilty .

I am not sure what you are meaning here. I have not suggested that we not pay taxes or obey the government. Also, I am not defending the guilty. Where are you getting these ideas?

5. Your emotions are something the Bible says you cant trust . Its objective law in society which is for all, that you need to obey and quit coming against. The Guilty should be punished and thats been Gods character and nature without compromise.

I know this, and it is the reason I said I pray that I could overcome my emotions and stand firm in my convictions. Again, why are you saying that I said the guilty should not be punished?

6. Youre right, Gods mercy CAN save anyone who is a Perpetrator of another. But the consequences of the action must remain and be carried out in the name of Justice, in the character of God himself, and for the betterment of Society to hopefully act as a deterrant.

I do not see how this plays into the discussion at all.

I think im done with the dialogue, and i hope you come to understand Gods intrinsic nature , character, and person better and then not to waver from that. It will serve you better because youll have the truth in which to follow and have a sure compass in life. End.

Thank you for your participation. God bless.

 

[Hawisher]

1. Can u imagine what society would be like if there was no Justice System to judge wrongdoers ?! It is a very good thing we Judge and Punish people who murder and commit other heinous crimes. Your idea of brushing off punishment is absurd and would make society even less safe than what it already is.

When did he say "don't punish people"?

2. Jesus himself said Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars...meaning to OBEY the Government and if the GOvernment establishes punishment for crimes willfully committed then we should not fight it.

And, as a member of the electorate, he has some influence on what the government decides, and he is free to vote his conscience.

3. An innocent life taken suddenly and willfully by a Perpertrator is NOT Gods Will ; it is an offense toward God and the Victim. The Perp. in essence is playing God by taking life in accordance to HIS plan and standard. It doesnt matter where the Victim ends up for eternity.

No? The perp is not "playing God"; he's just being horrible. There's a difference.

4. God says to support and obey our GOvernment . That means ALL branches of that Government. Unless it violates a law of God, you need to stop defending the Guilty .

Um, no. You are incorrect. He is a member of the electorate, and his opinions carry legal weight. Moreover, his government specifically authorizes him to express his opinions.

5. Your emotions are something the Bible says you cant trust . Its objective law in society which is for all, that you need to obey and quit coming against. The Guilty should be punished and thats been Gods character and nature without compromise.

So, when slavery was legal, that was okay? Is that what you're saying? Do you support slavery? And you think it's okay that people who freed slaves were prosecuted?

6. Youre right, Gods mercy CAN save anyone who is a Perpetrator of another. But the consequences of the action must remain and be carried out in the name of Justice, in the character of God himself, and for the betterment of Society to hopefully act as a deterrant.

You perpetrate crimes, not people.

 

[Jonathan95]

Well since no-one joins the police with the intention of killing anyone then your latter point only makes sense is what you really mean is Christians should be police officers period. But then do you call the police if something is happening to your family or your neighbours - do you give evidence in court?

Sorry my young Brother you are mistaken. Look again and you will find verses that instruct men to carry swords (Lk. 22:36 for example). Why would Jesus instruct men to carry swords? I'm sure He didn't mean for them to shave with them.

It was not for the purpose of "self-defense."

Jesus instructed his disciples to buy the swords, “for it is written: ‘he was numbered with the transgressors.’”

Here, Jesus referenced Isaiah 53:12, which contains one of the many Old Testament prophesies concerning the life of the Messiah. Jesus wanted the swords present when he was arrested, because the presence of the swords would indicate to those arresting him that he was one of the “transgressors,” that he was leading a violent rebellion. Jesus again referenced this while he was being arrested:

Matthew 26:55-56: At that time Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.”

In this passage, Jesus acknowledged that all this was taking place so “that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.”





We are to love our enemies Jesus said.

Jesus specifically forbade Peter from using the sword, but his wording was universal:

Matthew 26:52: “Put your sword back in its place… for all who take the sword will die by the sword.”

See, it wasn't for self-defense, otherwise why would Jesus instruct them to carry swords?

This same denunciation of “the sword” is found in the book of Revelation, specifically applied to all followers of Christ:

(Revelation 13:9-10) He who has an ear, let him hear… He who kills with the sword will be killed with the sword. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

In this passage, the same comment Jesus made prohibiting the defense of himself is explicitly applied to all “who has an ear.” Indeed, refraining from using violent self-defense against an approaching enemy does require “patient endurance and faithfulness.”

Most of the Apostles met a martyr’s death, but instead of using defensive violence, they showed love towards their enemies.

Acts 7:60: …“Lord, do not hold this sin against them!”…

Although faced with great persecution, the Apostles followed the lead of Jesus and Stephen, facing their enemies with love while rejecting the sword. Here are the Apostles in their own words:

Romans 12:14: Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

Romans 12:17-21: Do not repay anyone evil for evil… live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink…” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

1 Thessalonians 5:9: God did not appoint us to wrath…

1 Thessalonians 5:15: Make sure that no one back evil for evil, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.

James 1:20: The wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

1 Peter 3:9-11: Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing …turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.

 

[Bethesda]

It was not for the purpose of "self-defense."

Jesus instructed his disciples to buy the swords, “for it is written: ‘he was numbered with the transgressors.’”

Here, Jesus referenced Isaiah 53:12, which contains one of the many Old Testament prophesies concerning the life of the Messiah. Jesus wanted the swords present when he was arrested, because the presence of the swords would indicate to those arresting him that he was one of the “transgressors,” that he was leading a violent rebellion. Jesus again referenced this while he was being arrested:

Matthew 26:55-56: At that time Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.”

In this passage, Jesus acknowledged that all this was taking place so “that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.”





We are to love our enemies Jesus said.

Jesus specifically forbade Peter from using the sword, but his wording was universal:

Matthew 26:52: “Put your sword back in its place… for all who take the sword will die by the sword.”

See, it wasn't for self-defense, otherwise why would Jesus instruct them to carry swords?

This same denunciation of “the sword” is found in the book of Revelation, specifically applied to all followers of Christ:

(Revelation 13:9-10) He who has an ear, let him hear… He who kills with the sword will be killed with the sword. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

In this passage, the same comment Jesus made prohibiting the defense of himself is explicitly applied to all “who has an ear.” Indeed, refraining from using violent self-defense against an approaching enemy does require “patient endurance and faithfulness.”

Most of the Apostles met a martyr’s death, but instead of using defensive violence, they showed love towards their enemies.

Acts 7:60: …“Lord, do not hold this sin against them!”…

Although faced with great persecution, the Apostles followed the lead of Jesus and Stephen, facing their enemies with love while rejecting the sword. Here are the Apostles in their own words:

Romans 12:14: Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

Romans 12:17-21: Do not repay anyone evil for evil… live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink…” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

1 Thessalonians 5:9: God did not appoint us to wrath…

1 Thessalonians 5:15: Make sure that no one back evil for evil, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.

James 1:20: The wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

1 Peter 3:9-11: Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing …turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.

well I think that those who are Christians in the police, courts, prisons etc certainly do the above - its important not to fall into the easy way of hating those who are on the wrong side of the table when in fact we are all sinners and the only real answer to crime is a change in the heart of people

 

[Max S Cherry]

It was not for the purpose of "self-defense."

Thank you for posting all that. It is perhaps the best post in this entire thread.

 

[apache1]

It is simply part of nature of all things (ultimately from the Good Lord above) to want to preserve one's life and health, and to defend itself or one's that it cares about from harm. Even a mouse will fight when cornered. To me, this is simple common sense, not some esoteric gobbledygook one has to ponder whether hurt feelings (or worse) of one trying to perpetrate the harm.

 

[apache1]

I am aware of the need for correction among believers. I feel that is important to the growth of individuals and for Christianity as a whole. I believe we are instructed to judge what is sin and what is not sin, and by that judgment, we are to live our lives. It is why we are instructed to judge only by those rules that we are willing to be judged by. The type of judging you are referring to now is rebuking, but earlier it seemed to me that you were referring to judging in terms of determining guilt for the purposes of meting out punishment, as Christ will do when He sits in judgment of mankind. When I said that we are not to judge, I was not meaning that we cannot judge a person's behavior to be sinful.



I do not believe an innocent person exists except perhaps in the cases of the unborn and the mentally challenged. I do not see how our current laws play into our discussion at all. Currently abortion is legal, and I cannot imagine an action being any more clearly sinful than abortion. I have not found clear instructions on self-defense in the New Testament, but what I have found is clear instructions as to whom vengeance belongs to, God. We are instructed to not follow an "eye for an eye," and we are told to "turn the other cheek."



I do not believe a Christian ever dies without it being God's will, and I believe that all things work together for those who love the Lord. Even a Christian's death works for his good. My life is in His hands, and I believe I will die when He calls me.



But in the New Testament, He operates differently. God is just, and He will judge and punish those who do not repent. That is a pretty big step away from instructing us to do it for Him though.



I am a human, and as such, I am subject to human emotions. If I were in a position to prevent such things from happening to my mother, or to anyone really, I would be tempted to give in. I pray that I am never in that position, and if I ever am, I pray to have strength to stand firm in my conviction.

I am a fan of justice, but I do not long to see it carried out. I am a sinner, and justly, I deserve damnation. I believe in God's grace. It saved me, and I believe it can save others. I do not long to see it carried out, and I do not believe that I have been called to carry it out. I believe it belongs to God, and He will see that the evil is repaid to the unrepentant.

I think you may really mean well, but if you are ever in a situation like above (unfortunately, I have been in more than one potential situation that could have ended in almost as tragic results as mentioned above, and in all situations I have successfully fended them off, none of them did I start or put myself in situation that could have resulted, rather, trouble came to me, and in one case, my family, but..) you don't know what you will really do until it (God forbid, never) actually happens. I hope that at least you will TRY to defend the ones you love, even if it does not end successfully. If you aren't at least willing to try, then you might as well carry a jar of Vaseline with you and be ready to bend over. Sorry to sound so crude, but I have no respect for not being willing to fight for ones wife, son, daughter, father, mother, or any innocent, for that matter.

 

[apache1]

He measures up against your standard. The question is whether that's the Christian virtue.

I would much rather have Sargent York (who, by the way, was a born again Christian) in my corner than you.

 

[QR1]

Thank you for posting all that. It is perhaps the best post in this entire thread.

Not really.

There are several implications which are . . . lacking.

1. "Those who live by the sword die by the sword" is used in this post as if that is somehow objectionable. It isn't. John 15 "13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." ESV . . . to die by the sword in the service of one's country, the protection of one's family, or simply of a neighbor (Matthew 22:39) would seem to be a noble sacrifice, consistent with the actions of Christ.


2. "We are to love our enemies Jesus said." There is no hate in the warrior's heart for his enemy. It is a regretful thing when they oblige themselves to death. Enemies when they must be struck down should be slain compassionately, by the most efficient means. It is not right to make an enemy suffer needlessly, but worse would be the tyranny of letting the enemy win. Hate may help the green recruit through his first tastes of taking life, but it fades in veterans or devours them. The wise warrior avoids hate altogether, but that doesn't mean killing isn't sometimes necessary, even compassionate.

Now off I go to read bed time stories to young boys. . .

 

[QueSi]

Not really.

There are several implications which are . . . lacking.

1. "Those who live by the sword die by the sword" is used in this post as if that is somehow objectionable. It isn't. John 15 "13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." ESV . . . to die by the sword in the service of one's country, the protection of one's family, or simply of a neighbor (Matthew 22:39) would seem to be a noble sacrifice, consistent with the actions of Christ.

2. "We are to love our enemies Jesus said." There is no hate in the warrior's heart for his enemy. It is a regretful thing when they oblige themselves to death. Enemies when they must be struck down should be slain compassionately, by the most efficient means. It is not right to make an enemy suffer needlessly, but worse would be the tyranny of letting the enemy win. Hate may help the green recruit through his first tastes of taking life, but it fades in veterans or devours them. The wise warrior avoids hate altogether, but that doesn't mean killing isn't sometimes necessary, even compassionate.

Now off I go to read bed time stories to young boys. . .

Killing is never necessary

 

[apache1]

Not really.

There are several implications which are . . . lacking.

1. "Those who live by the sword die by the sword" is used in this post as if that is somehow objectionable. It isn't. John 15 "13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." ESV . . . to die by the sword in the service of one's country, the protection of one's family, or simply of a neighbor (Matthew 22:39) would seem to be a noble sacrifice, consistent with the actions of Christ.


2. "We are to love our enemies Jesus said." There is no hate in the warrior's heart for his enemy. It is a regretful thing when they oblige themselves to death. Enemies when they must be struck down should be slain compassionately, by the most efficient means. It is not right to make an enemy suffer needlessly, but worse would be the tyranny of letting the enemy win. Hate may help the green recruit through his first tastes of taking life, but it fades in veterans or devours them. The wise warrior avoids hate altogether, but that doesn't mean killing isn't sometimes necessary, even compassionate.

Now off I go to read bed time stories to young boys. . .

This probably makes more sense than anything else I've read on this thread.

 

[apache1]

Killing is never necessary

I like how all you holier-than-thou types and smug un-bending
"total" pacifists say how you would never do this or that or how something is never necessary. Until you've been in a spot where you will "never" do something, you don't know what you will or won't do. Unfortunately, more than once I've been in spot where I thought I was going to have do what you say "is never necessary", but fortunately did not have to. No, I have no b.s. guilt about what I just wrote. As I mentioned before, even a mouse will fight when cornered, just the self-preservation instinct the Good Lord placed in us.

 

[QR1]

Killing is never necessary

Provided you have the means to hire someone else to do your killing for you. Provided you have a government which demands taxes in exchange for providing someone to do your killing for you. "Killing is never necessary" is an incomplete phrase, lacking caveats that would transform the phrase from unrealistic ideal to real world truth. It is unfortunate, but at the end of the day, some people just need killing & whether you are up for personal responsibility or want to push it off on agents of the State, truth is truth.

 

[Max S Cherry]

Not really.

It was really a judgment call on that one. I liked it.

There are several implications which are . . . lacking.

1. "Those who live by the sword die by the sword" is used in this post as if that is somehow objectionable. It isn't. John 15 "13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." ESV . . . to die by the sword in the service of one's country, the protection of one's family, or simply of a neighbor (Matthew 22:39) would seem to be a noble sacrifice, consistent with the actions of Christ.

None of those sacrifices are objected to, and I believe they help to prove the point. Killing is not necessary, but sometimes dying is.

2. "We are to love our enemies Jesus said." There is no hate in the warrior's heart for his enemy. It is a regretful thing when they oblige themselves to death. Enemies when they must be struck down should be slain compassionately, by the most efficient means. It is not right to make an enemy suffer needlessly, but worse would be the tyranny of letting the enemy win. Hate may help the green recruit through his first tastes of taking life, but it fades in veterans or devours them. The wise warrior avoids hate altogether, but that doesn't mean killing isn't sometimes necessary, even compassionate.

I disagree with you concerning the possible necessity of killing, but I can agree that it is sometimes expedient. Even without the element of hate and even if the killing is considered compassionate, I believe it is against the teachings of Christ.

Now off I go to read bed time stories to young boys. . .

I hope they enjoyed their stories and had a great night.

 

[Max S Cherry]

Provided you have the means to hire someone else to do your killing for you. Provided you have a government which demands taxes in exchange for providing someone to do your killing for you. "Killing is never necessary" is an incomplete phrase, lacking caveats that would transform the phrase from unrealistic ideal to real world truth. It is unfortunate, but at the end of the day, some people just need killing & whether you are up for personal responsibility or want to push it off on agents of the State, truth is truth.

I believe that truth is being confused with a particular preference. I do not see how it can be truthful that "killing is sometimes necessary" when one does not mind the conditions that "not killing" could usher in. Could a country be overran by foes? Certainly. Could your home be invaded or your loved ones harmed? Certainly. If these are of lesser importance than adherence to ones convictions, it seems that "killing is never necessary" is at least as truthful as "killing is sometimes necessary."

 

[QueSi]

I like how all you holier-than-thou types and smug un-bending
"total" pacifists say how you would never do this or that or how something is never necessary. Until you've been in a spot where you will "never" do something, you don't know what you will or won't do. Unfortunately, more than once I've been in spot where I thought I was going to have do what you say "is never necessary", but fortunately did not have to. No, I have no b.s. guilt about what I just wrote. As I mentioned before, even a mouse will fight when cornered, just the self-preservation instinct the Good Lord placed in us.

We are much more than mice, Why would you compare us to mice?

I do know that I will never intentionally kill, no matter the situation. The man that I try to live my life after never advocated killing.

 

[QueSi]

Provided you have the means to hire someone else to do your killing for you. Provided you have a government which demands taxes in exchange for providing someone to do your killing for you. "Killing is never necessary" is an incomplete phrase, lacking caveats that would transform the phrase from unrealistic ideal to real world truth. It is unfortunate, but at the end of the day, some people just need killing & whether you are up for personal responsibility or want to push it off on agents of the State, truth is truth.

I don't pay taxes to the government for this reason, I do not support killing. I would never hire someone to kill for me. I am told to love my enemies, not just my friends and could certainly never kill someone I loved.

 

[QueSi]

If these are of lesser importance than adherence to ones convictions, it seems that "killing is never necessary" is at least as truthful as "killing is sometimes necessary."

Thank you

 

[Bethesda]

I have found the light, we all start in darkness. I was not a soldier btw, I only analyzed electronic signals and bank information.

Technically etc if you are wear a uniform and are in the military - whether working in signals, cooking food or being in the infantry, you are a soldier