Is it ethical to have pets?

[Nienna_Lady_of_Tears]

Mankind has bred dogs for various kind of tasks, and, when it comes to researching the various breeds, inevitably you come across some breeds that had no apparent purpose except for companionship. Take the Bichon Frise for example. This is a breed of dog that if owning pets somehow became illegal, the breed would not survive because it is a) small enough to become coyote food, and b) willing to please humans.

I have heard of bichons who were young and healthy when their owners passed away and they would do nothing and eventually died of a broken heart/starvation.


I think that if we did not have pets, we would have a lot MORE animals die on a daily basis than we have now. And, if you spay or neuter early enough, the animal doesn't know what they're missing.

For better or for worse, humans have domesticated animals for several uses, one of them being companionship. It's not like we can reverse thousands of years of history by no longer having pets. If we did that we'd see more animal cruelty, suffering, and death than we would ever imagine.

 

[Protocol11]

as it is given food and love and attention and just sits on the couch?

Don't worry, I don't give any of my pets those things.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Is the modern practice of having pets ethical?

Let's take a cat as an example. Is it ethical for someone to pay others who breed domesticated cats,

If the breeding is in any way forced, it is sexual abuse of pets.

and then take it home and surgically disable it from reproducing,

Sexual abuse of pets.

and then put it in an environment where all of its instincts are null and void, as it is given food and love and attention and just sits on the couch?

I don't see a problem here. Especially if you give it plenty of freedom. My cats are allowed to go where ever they want. There is just food, water, and love if they stay around the house. They choose to stay around the house even though I have watched them successfully hunt fresh meat before, so they aren't dependent upon my family, they just want to be there.

-Or a bird with clipped wings, often kept in a cage, but well-cared-for otherwise?

Clipped wings: Physical abuse.
Kept in cage: Safety, but unless you have an amazing size cage, it would seem restrictive.

-Or a snake, well-fed, but kept in a tank all the time?

-Lyn

Once again, restrictive.

 

[sbvera13]

Is it ethical for someone to pay others who breed domesticated cats, and then take it home and surgically disable it from reproducing, and then put it in an environment where all of its instincts are null and void, as it is given food and love and attention and just sits on the couch?

Depends on the conditions the pet is kept in, the care it's given, and it's suitability to being a pet in the first place. Cat's for example are extremely good at adapting to household life, providing you as pet owner satisfy certain needs. I have had cats forever, and I'll describe my current arrangement.
-Food, water, and physical care, obviously.
-There are two cats of different ages. I adopted them deliberately this way, so the younger one would keep the older one playful and energetic. Now that they are both adults, they play and chase and do kitty things all the time because they learned to do it together.
-I have two homemade, room-tall scratching posts/towers. They get plenty of use. This provides both a place to fulfill their scratching instincts, but also to exercise, climb, and generally get a variety of environments even in a small apartment.
-Various boxes under shelves, cabinets, etc, for them to hide and sleep in when they don't want to be disturbed by us humans or by each other.
-Consistent signals, sounds, and gestures, making them comfortable and communicative with the two humans in the household. Since I raised them both as kittens, they grew up learning that humans could understand them. I'm constantly amazed at how good they are at figuring out how to tell me what they want.

So, even though by most standards a 1 bedroom apartment is not enough space for an animal, I've arranged my home to promote a health cat/human relationship, and it's worked beautifully. It also helps to understand a little cat psychology, and how their personality is linked to their territory. Cats can be happy in a surprisingly small space if it is "theirs."

If, on the other hand, someone keeps their cats as you described, those people should indeed not have pets. Your other examples are the same; I don't approve of constrained pet environments.

ps. I wonder how many people put that much thought into their pets psychology... I guess that shows how much of a philosopher I can be sometimes.

 

[sbvera13]

I have heard of bichons who were young and healthy when their owners passed away and they would do nothing and eventually died of a broken heart/starvation.

I've had cats that acted similar. We once went from three cats to one in about 3 months; the remaining cat was clearly depressed, showing the same symptoms a human would. Anxiety, appetite loss, lack of energy. She even spent a good deal of time looking around the house to see where the other cats had gone. Fortunately, she pulled out of it by bonding more closely with the humans. She became a very social and playful cat after that.

In summary, I suppsoe I'm just saying animals have emotions and build connections just like we do, even with other species. There's no harm in nurturing that connection in the form of pets, as long all the animals needs are accounted for (emotional needs included). If they can feel love, they can feel pain, and we should show compassion.

 

[BlackSabb]

Is the modern practice of having pets ethical?

Let's take a cat as an example. Is it ethical for someone to pay others who breed domesticated cats, and then take it home and surgically disable it from reproducing, and then put it in an environment where all of its instincts are null and void, as it is given food and love and attention and just sits on the couch?

-Or a bird with clipped wings, often kept in a cage, but well-cared-for otherwise?
-Or a snake, well-fed, but kept in a tank all the time?

-Lyn

And then you get the other side of the argument where people are claiming it's unethical for cats to be hunting native wildlife. Also, there is a third argument that it's unethical for people to let cats and dogs go undesexed because they breed puppies and kittens that end up stray, feral and impounded. And many of those are euthanised. So who is right?

So it's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you don't desex and pen up animals away from native wildlife, you are unethical. And if you do let your pets roam free and breed as they please, you are equally unethical.

I agree that it's cruel for animals to be penned up. I would never have a bird for example. I do however have 2 cats, both strays that came to my home and never left! One was already desexed and one we desexed. My cats go in and out of our home freely. I don't consider that cruel or unethical in any way. And the fact that I adopted 2 strays, common sense tells me the ethical thing to do is to desex them, to avoid any more potential strays.

As I'm typing this, my calyco cat is asleep on the floor, curled in front of the heater. Yeah, it's a hard life. If she could talk, I'd doubt she'd complain about her lot in life.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Let's take a cat as an example. Is it ethical for someone to pay others who breed domesticated cats, and then take it home and surgically disable it from reproducing, and then put it in an environment where all of its instincts are null and void, as it is given food and love and attention and just sits on the couch?

Yes, the cats seem contented enough.

One might ask if it is ethical for human beings to live in a comfortable and prosperous society, instead of living "on instinct", barely clinging to life, in a wilderness. Yes, I think it is ethical.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Rebekka]

Yes, the cats seem contented enough.

One might ask if it is ethical for human beings to live in a comfortable and prosperous society, instead of living "on instinct", barely clinging to life, in a wilderness. Yes, I think it is ethical.


eudaimonia,

Mark

You're in Sweden, right? You could if you wanted to. There's no wilderness left here, thanks to humans.



I don't think it's ethical to domesticate animals, but now that we have, I think we should take care of them as best as we can. We can't undo it, and we have a responsibility towards them. I think neutering is part of that responsibility, unless your house/garden is large enough to keep them (and their great-greatgrandkittens/puppies/etc) all happy. Don't burden the rest of the world with your pet's offspring.

 

[Protocol11]

You're in Sweden, right? You could if you wanted to. There's no wilderness left here, thanks to humans.

Don't you like...live in antarctica?

 

[Rebekka]

Don't you like...live in antarctica?

Oh, that... yes, well, no I don't.

Would be nice though - less crowded, that's for sure, and not as hot.

 

[keith99]

Yes, the cats seem contented enough.

One might ask if it is ethical for human beings to live in a comfortable and prosperous society, instead of living "on instinct", barely clinging to life, in a wilderness. Yes, I think it is ethical.


eudaimonia,

Mark

My first dog who is still with me spent much of his first 5 year scraping by on instinct and hunting in a world short of game. He is a rather smart dog. I know how he feels about the pets are not ethical idea. Pity the person who trys to put him back into that world. He is rather old (about 15) but he can still defend the life he has become accustomed to .

 

[No Swansong]

I don't care what other animals do, I care what I do and what other people do. Animals, especially lowly ones like ants, just "do" things.

And I'm not necessarily questioning the entire domestication process. I'm questioning specifically the domestication process with the goal being nothing more than a pet. A sheep dog, for instance, is not something I'm questioning here.


Well if an animal is raised from birth, it may know nothing else besides what it is comfortable with.


Yes, some people do. It's actually worse than it sounds, because in order to declaw them, they actually have to surgically remove the first knuckle on each toe, I believe.

My mother has declawed cats, but I wouldn't let my father declaw his cat.

-Lyn

What exactly is the ethical difference between domesticating a dog to work for you and domesticating a dog to be a companion?

 

[No Swansong]

And then you get the other side of the argument where people are claiming it's unethical for cats to be hunting native wildlife. Also, there is a third argument that it's unethical for people to let cats and dogs go undesexed because they breed puppies and kittens that end up stray, feral and impounded. And many of those are euthanised. So who is right?

So it's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you don't desex and pen up animals away from native wildlife, you are unethical. And if you do let your pets roam free and breed as they please, you are equally unethical.

I agree that it's cruel for animals to be penned up. I would never have a bird for example. I do however have 2 cats, both strays that came to my home and never left! One was already desexed and one we desexed. My cats go in and out of our home freely. I don't consider that cruel or unethical in any way. And the fact that I adopted 2 strays, common sense tells me the ethical thing to do is to desex them, to avoid any more potential strays.

As I'm typing this, my calyco cat is asleep on the floor, curled in front of the heater. Yeah, it's a hard life. If she could talk, I'd doubt she'd complain about her lot in life.

I have two males, both rescues, I don't think they would complain either. For those who think it is unethical to have a cat spayed or neutered have you ever witnessed a female cat in season that you will not allow to breed? Have you ever had a male dog when females in season are within smelling distance when you won't allow them to breed? It is ugly and they are miserable. My animals seem much more content.

 

[lawtonfogle]

I have two males, both rescues, I don't think they would complain either. For those who think it is unethical to have a cat spayed or neutered have you ever witnessed a female cat in season that you will not allow to breed? Have you ever had a male dog when females in season are within smelling distance when you won't allow them to breed? It is ugly and they are miserable. My animals seem much more content.

It seems the act causing cruelty is not allowing them to breed.


If poking a dog with a needle causes it pain, the poking it is the cruelty causing act, not me refusing to get an operation that removes the perception of pain.

 

[No Swansong]

It seems the act causing cruelty is not allowing them to breed.


If poking a dog with a needle causes it pain, the poking it is the cruelty causing act, not me refusing to get an operation that removes the perception of pain.

Allowing the animal to breed only compounds an already out of control problem. Having an animal neutered or spayed does not merely "remove the perception of pain". It removes the biological symptoms, it prevents them from suffering. Considering the alternative it is the most humane option.

 

[jayem]

We have an African Grey parrot. Her wings are not currently clipped, and she does have a fairly spacious cage. When we're home, we do let her out, and she hangs out in the living room with us if we're watching TV. She often perches on my chest or shoulder and lets me scratch her head. She likes playing catch--I'll toss one of her toys, and she'll scurry across the floor, pick it up in her beak, and carry it back to me. She has at least a 50-100 word vocabulary, and she definitely has learned to associate certain words with the appropriate situations. Gracie is over 20 years old now (she could live into her 50s), and has never had any health problems, but I wonder how happy she really is. She does have some feather-plucking issues (though not as bad as some birds.) The larger parrots, AGs especially, are recognized as being extremely intelligent. They need a stimulating environment. Unlike dogs, parrots haven't been domesticated for 1000s of years. They are still essentially wild animals. As entertaining as she is, I am conflicted as to the ethics of keeping such an intelligent and sensitive animal captive for my amusement and companionship.

 

[lawtonfogle]

My friend's aunt had a large parrot, don't remember the species, which actually suffered from depression when its mate died. It literally tried to commit suicide by not eating (it still drank through). So the owner gave it beer, got it drunk, and fed it. That went on for about 2 years I believe before the parrot started to eat without having to get tipsy first. If it can get depressed, makes you wonder about how intelligent they really are.

In fact, while slightly off topic, as to parrots and vocabulary, there are parrots who can get extensive vocabulary and even very basic grammar. They remind me of studies on certain feral and closest children who were found while they were still young enough to teach almost every word to, but whom had been feral/deprived stimulus long enough the portion of the brain responsible for grammar had disappeared from disuse, and thus they could not learn grammar.

 

[Penumbra]

Thanks for all the new responses.

Yes, the cats seem contented enough.

One might ask if it is ethical for human beings to live in a comfortable and prosperous society, instead of living "on instinct", barely clinging to life, in a wilderness. Yes, I think it is ethical.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Humans construct their own lives. We don't have, say, robot overlords disabling our ability to reproduce and then locking us up in a paradise.

What exactly is the ethical difference between domesticating a dog to work for you and domesticating a dog to be a companion?

The difference is that I'm trying to keep the thread focused. Domesticating or using any animal is questionable to me, but I'm trying to keep this focused on animals that serve emotional rather than physical needs.

We have an African Grey parrot. Her wings are not currently clipped, and she does have a fairly spacious cage. When we're home, we do let her out, and she hangs out in the living room with us if we're watching TV. She often perches on my chest or shoulder and lets me scratch her head. She likes playing catch--I'll toss one of her toys, and she'll scurry across the floor, pick it up in her beak, and carry it back to me. She has at least a 50-100 word vocabulary, and she definitely has learned to associate certain words with the appropriate situations. Gracie is over 20 years old now (she could live into her 50s), and has never had any health problems, but I wonder how happy she really is. She does have some feather-plucking issues (though not as bad as some birds.) The larger parrots, AGs especially, are recognized as being extremely intelligent. They need a stimulating environment. Unlike dogs, parrots haven't been domesticated for 1000s of years. They are still essentially wild animals. As entertaining as she is, I am conflicted as to the ethics of keeping such an intelligent and sensitive animal captive for my amusement and companionship.

I've known people with cockatoos that pluck literally all of their own feathers out. Cockatoos are especially emotional even compared to other parrots (though not generally considered as intelligent as african greys). A sad thing about parrots is that they are so intelligent and live so long, but a lot of people get rid of them after a few years so they end up stuck in a cage somewhere.

I'm happy to see people who really take good care of their parrots like your description would imply. I'm sad, though, when I think about even these parrots that are kept in an environment where they can't fly (whether it's due to clipped wings or the size of a room).

-Lyn

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Is it ethical to have pets?
I do not think the question is easily answered as there are alot of things involved and alot of situations you could point to.

Is it ethical today to have pets?
Yes absolutely provided they are actually ethically treated *insert rant against abusive owners*
added to that our responsiblity to take care of the animals we essentially created in the past.

Suppose we never had pets and we still got to where we are today is it ethical to go set out and create some?
Probably not. This i think does have some real world paralel if you consider people trying to keep wild animals as pets. plenty of issues there.

Course all of that has mainly to do with what we deem acceptable in society.

From the animals standpoint their opinion would be what we want to value in this but i doubt they really have one. Its not as if they can reason which life they would prefer. In the end if it gets what it would get in the wild; food, drink, exercise, mental stimulus.
and you add to that love and safety in return for giving up some freedom (which really just means they have to follow a slightly different set of rules from the wild. 'dont pester the snake' becomes 'dont wii on the couch')
In regards to cheating a animal out of getting to have sex. in the wild not all animals get to have sex either. we just replaced natural selection with artificial selection (disclaimer:argueably the same thing)

 

[Verv]

The cats and dogs I have lived with have always been happy.

The proof?

They always sat with us, near or on the couch with us, being pet and fawned over while we watched TV.

In all honesty, they have a really good deal.

If they lived in nature they would have to deal with harsh environmental conditions and always need to find food.