Is it Ethical to be fired for stating Christian beliefs

[RDKirk]

But he is in a different place than we are. That wouldn't be my choice either. But I'm not his judge and jury, as a Christian. Neither are you.

That doesn't mean he should be shut down because we don't like what he says.

If he purports to be in the Body of Christ, and if he is speaking from that position, then we do, in fact, have a say in the things he does. It's only when someone else purports to be in the Body of Christ that we do have a say.

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 1 Corinthians 5

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

If he purports to be in the Body of Christ, and if he is speaking from that position, then we do, in fact, have a say in the things he does. It's only when someone else purports to be in the Body of Christ that we do have a say.

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 1 Corinthians 5

True enough, if he is indeed a believer (I don't know much about him and was merely speaking to the issue posted by the OP.

You can judge his words and say you would have used different ones. You cannot judge his intentions or his heart, or decide he is speaking "in hate", as another poster stated.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Generally Ad Hom attacks and their kin are used when there is no rational argument. I'll take this as such.

That wasn't an attack; it was an observation, based on your profession of atheism under your picture here. You simply are not in a position to speak authoritatively of the scriptural intentions or meaning here. You may indeed say that to you, as an atheist, it sounds a certain way, but that is not at all the meaning to a believer. Your assertion is indeed backward.

 

[keith99]

That wasn't an attack; it was an observation, based on your profession of atheism under your picture here. You simply are not in a position to speak authoritatively of the scriptural intentions or meaning here. You may indeed say that to you, as an atheist, it sounds a certain way, but that is not at all the meaning to a believer. Your assertion is indeed backward.

How so? Did he teach the elders and preachers in his Church? One can understand what Christianity teaches without becoming Christian. In fact time after time it has been shown that atheists know Scripture better than Christians overall. Probably because atheists tend to actually read it instead of accepting the conclusions of someone.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

How so? Did he teach the elders and preachers in his Church? One can understand what Christianity teaches without becoming Christian. In fact time after time it has been shown that atheists know Scripture better than Christians overall. Probably because atheists tend to actually read it instead of accepting the conclusions of someone.

As one who has actually read it all, you are incorrect. I find that it is those outside who accept party line statements about what it means.

 

[Zoii]

Quoting scripture is not "sending messages of condemnation and division".

I have not read his contract. Have you?

Is your point that he has no contractual obligation and that he said nothing wrong?

Tell me - how would you feel about a chap that came to your christian school - The admin there thought he was a great teacher so gave him a contract. But told him that he wasnt permitted to teach Islam at the school or post anti-christian messages on social media.

But he did - Heck he was only quoting the qoran. s that so bad - is it fair the school held him to account. It seems you would be not supportive of the schools sanctioning of him.

 

[Zoii]

I didn't say that. I said he was probably celebrated as a good player on whatever level team he was on at the time. He had to develop his skills somewhere.

I think we aready established he was a good player, after all hes on the national team.

 

[Paidiske]

Quoting scripture is not "sending messages of condemnation and division".

Not necessarily, but it certainly can be.

I feel like I "get" this guy. I was like him once; young and certain of what I'd been told, and willing to put it out there publicly in a way which didn't take account of its impact on others. I wouldn't say I was motivated by hate, but I was very very ignorant and oblivious to the harm I was doing. The difference was I didn't have this kind of platform to come to public attention.

God brought me to repent of that, and who knows? In time God may do the same for Israel too. In the meantime I think we have every right - as the Australian community, and perhaps even more so as the Australian Christian community - to tell him that he has every right to his beliefs, and to live in accordance with them; but he doesn't have a right to share them in a way which is harmful. And to hold him to account on that until he starts to understand for himself.

 

[Sketcher]

I dont think people misunderstood - In case they did misunderstand he repeated himself numerously just to ensure we all got it.

And yes he should be held accountable - He broke his legal and moral agreement and caused damage.

To clarify, which specific tweet or tweets were damaging, and how were they damaging?

 

[Zoii]

Oh gosh Ive posted this numerously.

 

[KCfromNC]

He is celebrated for being a good player, right?

Not because he is a good player with X team. He was probably celebrated when still in college or high school as well. I agree he is probably more well known because he is on the team. But that doesn't mean he no longer has the right to express his faith (unless that is how his contract reads, which seems unconscionable).

Not sure where you're getting this from - he now has even more freedom to express his faith now that he doesn't have an employer trying to pull him back on-message.

 

[Sketcher]

Oh gosh Ive posted this numerously.

You posted general concepts and interpretations, but what I'm curious about are specific tweets that got him into trouble. That will demonstrate what you and Rugby Union consider "the line" to be. I've read his Twitter page for the last year, but I don't want to make assumptions about which ones offended you or Rugby Union and which ones did not.

Now, someone I wish he would learn from is Tim Tebow. He's a Christian athlete who was very popular and is very outspoken about his faith, but his Twitter is less on the fire-and-brimstone end. People criticized him, but the primary criticism that made any headway was his game when he made the pros (college football is a different style with different rules, and he was better at that than at pro football - but he still found ways to win at that level). There were aggressive atheists in the US who still liked him, I hope he wouldn't have gotten in trouble in Australia for doing there what he has done here.

 

[Zoii]

ut what I'm curious about are specific tweets that got him into trouble

He's posted quite a few. For me personally, it was the instagram post I received saying "Drunks, Homosexuals, Adulterers, Liars, Fornicators, Thieves Atheists, Idolaters, Hell awaits you.

Its still on his instagram account. Israel Folau on Instagram: “Those that are living in Sin will end up in Hell unless you repent. Jesus Christ loves you and is giving you time to turn away from your…”

This other post of Izzy's explains his approach to evangelism

 

[KCfromNC]

This other post of Izzy's explains his approach to evangelism

Confusing truth with "random stuff I happen to believe"?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Not necessarily, but it certainly can be.

I feel like I "get" this guy. I was like him once; young and certain of what I'd been told, and willing to put it out there publicly in a way which didn't take account of its impact on others. I wouldn't say I was motivated by hate, but I was very very ignorant and oblivious to the harm I was doing. The difference was I didn't have this kind of platform to come to public attention.

God brought me to repent of that, and who knows? In time God may do the same for Israel too. In the meantime I think we have every right - as the Australian community, and perhaps even more so as the Australian Christian community - to tell him that he has every right to his beliefs, and to live in accordance with them; but he doesn't have a right to share them in a way which is harmful. And to hold him to account on that until he starts to understand for himself.

How is it harmful?

I agree that it isn't the good stuff we all want to hear from scripture, like "You are more than a conquerer, though Him who loved us." and "Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world." and "Love is patient and kind..."

And it certainly isn't diplomatic. But he isn't wrong. He's young. I'm not sure how it is "harming" anyone to speak of sin and its outcome. The people who don't believe him just laugh at him anyway. The people who do believe him probably wish he would adjust his focus, but it's wrong to wish he would just shut up about sin.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Is your point that he has no contractual obligation and that he said nothing wrong?

Tell me - how would you feel about a chap that came to your christian school - The admin there thought he was a great teacher so gave him a contract. But told him that he wasnt permitted to teach Islam at the school or post anti-christian messages on social media.

But he did - Heck he was only quoting the qoran. s that so bad - is it fair the school held him to account. It seems you would be not supportive of the schools sanctioning of him.

Well, he came to work at a Christian School, so it is proper to expect him not to disavow and teach against Christianity.

This guy just went to a sports league, in which there are likely players of all and no faiths. Not the same at all.

 

[grasping the after wind]

How inclusive is it to exclude people because they believe certain things?

 

[Paidiske]

How is it harmful?

I agree that it isn't the good stuff we all want to hear from scripture, like "You are more than a conquerer, though Him who loved us." and "Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world." and "Love is patient and kind..."

And it certainly isn't diplomatic. But he isn't wrong. He's young. I'm not sure how it is "harming" anyone to speak of sin and its outcome. The people who don't believe him just laugh at him anyway. The people who do believe him probably wish he would adjust his focus, but it's wrong to wish he would just shut up about sin.

Suppose you are a person who falls into one of these categories; particularly, suppose you are a person who primarily experiences same-sex attraction. Perhaps you have tried to change that and failed. Perhaps you still have some apprehension that there is a God, and wonder what, if any, relationship with that God you might have.

This message does not offer you hope. It does not offer you a way into that relationship. It does not reassure you that you are God's good creation, loved and cherished, and that God's arms are always open to you; that God desires to lavish grace upon you.

Rather, it pushes you away from God in despair. You are worthy of hell. Heaven is shut to you, because of something you didn't choose and can't control.

Of course that message is harmful. It's not good news; it's a perversion of good news, a lie with a grain of truth, but one which tells people that the community of faith is not for them. That they are not welcome, not wanted.

This message promotes anxiety and depression. It is linked with high rates of suicide. It has been a huge part of why many people - not just same-sex attracted people, but their families and friends and those who see the damage done to them - no longer find the church credible or a place to seek authentic relationship with God.

It's not just undiplomatic. It does not put matters in their proper perspective; God's love and grace first, as the context in which any sin might be dealt with.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Suppose you are a person who falls into one of these categories; particularly, suppose you are a person who primarily experiences same-sex attraction. Perhaps you have tried to change that and failed. Perhaps you still have some apprehension that there is a God, and wonder what, if any, relationship with that God you might have.

This message does not offer you hope. It does not offer you a way into that relationship. It does not reassure you that you are God's good creation, loved and cherished, and that God's arms are always open to you; that God desires to lavish grace upon you.

Rather, it pushes you away from God in despair. You are worthy of hell. Heaven is shut to you, because of something you didn't choose and can't control.

Of course that message is harmful. It's not good news; it's a perversion of good news, a lie with a grain of truth, but one which tells people that the community of faith is not for them. That they are not welcome, not wanted.

This message promotes anxiety and depression. It is linked with high rates of suicide. It has been a huge part of why many people - not just same-sex attracted people, but their families and friends and those who see the damage done to them - no longer find the church credible or a place to seek authentic relationship with God.

It's not just undiplomatic. It does not put matters in their proper perspective; God's love and grace first, as the context in which any sin might be dealt with.

If I were this person, I would come to understand - assuming any sort of actually biblical teaching - that this is my particular fight with the enemy in this life at this time. Everyone's got something they will have to overcome.

It really isn't much different than one I have battled and won, through the grace of God - drinking. I haven't had a drink in 26 years. God delivered me. Some say that doesn't happen and one must attend meetings and do exactly the opposite thing of what God says to do - to confess yourself a slave to alcohol and a lifelong battle - but this isn't true. I never ever even think of it now, unless it comes up in some kind of context like this. Now, I'm not stupid - I don't hang out in bars, buy alcohol, or put thoughts of it in my mind at all. But what God has done endures forever (unless I undo it).

God loved me before when I was struggling and I was still welcome in his Kingdom - as is ANYONE else - but my life was more difficult and there were negative consequences, the same as it is for anyone battling any sin. I wasn't my sin; I simply battled my sin (and sometimes did not).

You are making assumptions here that this particular issue is different, but God's Word says otherwise. You appear to be assuming it is not even possible, and I don't make that assumption.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm not assuming it's not possible; but I have worked with enough people who have sincerely prayed for change to know that it doesn't happen for everyone who seeks it. We need to be honest about that.

And I do think that same-sex attraction is different to alcoholism, in a variety of ways.

Our task as the church is to support and encourage each person in their particular situation, not to push them away; and that's the problem I have with messages such as are being discussed here. That they push people away from God and from the Church rather than offering support and encouragement and hope. They're never going to find what deliverance and grace God offers if we've already told them their place is in hell.