Is it a sin?

[ImaginaryDay]

<snip>What if Bob is otherwise a decent fellow<snip>

Amongst all the other "what if's" that keep creeping into the original scenario I just can't let this one pass.

What if Bob IS an otherwise decent fellow? Being a decent fellow has never meant squat in the Christian life. Painting Bob in a better light and having him come across as someone who is just thinking bad things, and (even worse) maybe figures it's loving to just let his wife go find another guy to cover his own sin... I don't get it.

So - and please answer this straightly - in the scenario, 1) is divorce the only sin as you see it? 2) Has Bob done nothing sinful to this point?

 

[LinkH]

So - and please answer this straightly - in the scenario, 1) is divorce the only sin as you see it? 2) Has Bob done nothing sinful to this point?

Well, all have sinned. But Bob is imaginary.

So far, Bob hasn't taken any action or chosen a woman as a love interest. He's being tempted and he's hearing advice from different sourcs.

We might find some sin in how Bob entertains thoughts that he should not. But why would it be sinful for him to contemplate divorcing his wife--with a proper certificate--and marrying another, if it weren't a sin for Bob to actually do that? Why would it be a sin for Bob to think about divorcing his wife and remarrying, if it were not wrong for Bob to divorce his wife and remarry?

 

[Hetta]

I fixed the spelling error. In real life, a wife whose been faithful for years who finds out her husband is contemplating divorce probably won't be too thrilled about it.

No - but she'd get over it. People do. They either get over it or they die. Most people don't choose death.

Maybe you haven't been following the conversations in the other threads so far. I've been saying that Jesus taught against the sort of thing one of Bob's friends is telling him is okay, that he is allowed to dump his wife and find another, just as long as he gives her a certificate of divorce.

So this story is over multiple threads? Uh, no, I haven't been following fantasy Bob and his fantasy life. Sorry.

The girls Bob lining up are in Bob's imagination as he struggles with this temptation to believe the deception.

So he's committing adultery in his mind and heart with them. Bob is deceiving himself. Nobody is deceiving him. He has chosen his own struggles here, nobody has thrust them upon him.

Btw, the OP contains the following line, "He has a friend who has explained to him that it is not a sin for Bob to divorce Mary and marry a younger woman, just as long as Bob gives her a divorce certificate. "

And as he is a grown man, he's still responsible for any decision he makes. Sorry, but you don't get to blame your 'friends' when you make foolish decisions.

So, that's it? If you knew a couple like this in real life, that's what you would advise? What if Bob is otherwise a decent fellow, and these folks were related to you? If you met Bob and God gave you supernatural insight into Bob's mind, and you had a chance to advise him, would you advise him to divorce his wife? Would you just tell Mary to divorce him?

IRL? I would tell them to get themselves to a marriage counselor.

Seriously, there are too many 'if's' in your stories Link. You keep on wanting to justify this guy, which is understandable because I've noticed that you always do justify guys, so oh well. If God gave me a 'supernatural insight' into Bob's mind I would be deeply shocked. God's going to make me a mind reader? Why? Wouldn't God be using His energies better by giving Mary an insight into her husband's mind? Because then she'd know what the risk was and how to protect herself. She could start making a list of old Bob's holdings so that he doesn't hide any of them during the divorce.

But seriously, Bob seems like the kind of guy who just wants people to agree with him. He seems like a bit of a creep too, the way he is eyeing up young women. I'd want to keep my daughters away from him, and I'd want to warn Mary what's going on. What Bob does from there on out, bearing in mind that he and Mary would be in marriage counseling, is on him. Not me.

And no, I don't think that divorce is all about money. I'm quite obviously joking.

 

[LinkH]

But......don't you see the importance of whom this passage was directed to?

It wasn't to "Marys"......it was to "Bobs" (women had no option to divorce anyway). This "Bob" has a hardened and calloused heart towards his wife that he promised to love and cherish. That's typically expected to be a life-long thing......(vows or no vows)....not "as long as you stay slim and my idea of 'exciting'".

Good points. Of course, in my example, Bob's wedding didn't involve any lengthy vows about loving and cherishing. Still, he should love and cherish his wife whether he made the vows or not.

Even if he gave her a certificate of divorce, he'd be betraying her if he divorced her. She's given him all those years as his wife, and to reject her after that would be a form of betrayal, IMO.

I believe you pointed it out earlier. The example of Bob here would probably be very similar to the sort of scenario the Pharisees debated about, the very topic they asked Jesus about in Matthew 19.

In the first century Jewish community following Pharisaical teachings, Mary would have only gotten a divorce settlement as outlined in the marriage contract, not something proportional to his current earnings. She'd probably get some gold coins, and Bob could keep his hedge fund money. She'd be out on the street.

The Pharisees accepted the need for a certificate. They argued about circumstances under which they could blame the wife and get away with not paying the divorce settlement according to the marriage contract, and they also argued about the proper grounds for divorce based on their understanding of the 'uncleanness' for which a man sends away his wife in Deuteronomy 24.

They knew they weren't supposed to put away wives without certificates. It may have happened, but it was considered illegal, so the Pharisees were not asking Jesus about this as a point of law.

 

[LinkH]

So this story is over multiple threads? Uh, no, I haven't been following fantasy Bob and his fantasy life. Sorry.

No, there are several threads on divorce.

So he's committing adultery in his mind and heart with them. Bob is deceiving himself. Nobody is deceiving him. He has chosen his own struggles here, nobody has thrust them upon him.

And as he is a grown man, he's still responsible for any decision he makes. Sorry, but you don't get to blame your 'friends' when you make foolish decisions.

This was a response to my clarifying that you overlooked aspects of the initial scenario. Also, the advice he gave was along the lines of the interpretation some posters took of Matthew 19 on the other thread.

IRL? I would tell them to get themselves to a marriage counselor.

If they get a good marriage counselor, that could help a lot. IMO, that's better than telling Mary to dump him for having some bad thoughts.

Seriously, there are too many 'if's' in your stories Link. You keep on wanting to justify this guy, which is understandable because I've noticed that you always do justify guys, so oh well.

Now you are just being antagonistic. You were adding and removing parts from the scenario I presented, and I was pointing that out.

If God gave me a 'supernatural insight' into Bob's mind I would be deeply shocked. God's going to make me a mind reader? Why? Wouldn't God be using His energies better by giving Mary an insight into her husband's mind?

Maybe you aren't familiar with the gift of the word of knowledge.

He seems like a bit of a creep too, the way he is eyeing up young women. I'd want to keep my daughters away from him, and I'd want to warn Mary what's going on.

Your adding a little to the story line, but if I knew a man like this was thinking of trading in his wife for a younger model, I wouldn't want him getting too friendly with my daughters either.

And no, I don't think that divorce is all about money. I'm quite obviously joking.

That was Avniel's comment, btw. Humor, whit, wryness, and even sarcasm can be hard to pick up on in these posts sometimes due to the medium we are using. A lot of that gets lost when I post, too.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Well, all have sinned. But Bob is imaginary.

So far, Bob hasn't taken any action or chosen a woman as a love interest. He's being tempted and he's hearing advice from different sourcs.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

We might find some sin in how Bob entertains thoughts that he should not. But why would it be sinful for him to contemplate divorcing his wife--with a proper certificate--and marrying another, if it weren't a sin for Bob to actually do that?

You still miss the point. I'm prone to believe that your view is that Bob is in the clear until he actually signs the paper. Is that true or not? I'm of the belief that Bob is in sin NOW and the paper is the car wreck that everyone will be gawking at as Mary is carried away on a stretcher.

Why would it be a sin for Bob to think about divorcing his wife and remarrying

Because he is in a covenant relationship with his wife NOW.

if it were not wrong for Bob to divorce his wife and remarry?

Again, the divorce is the end result of the sin in your scenario. For example, if you're on the freeway, and see an accident, you don't say "wow, an accident must be about to happen, we'd better be careful around here". No, you'd say "Wow, what a serious accident! Someone really wasn't paying attention to what they were doing. Just look at all the damage!"
The accident is the aftermath, not the cause. Your scenario suggests that Bob better be careful because he's driving by an accident, not realizing he's the one gone over the cliff.

 

[Hetta]

Your adding a little to the story line, but if I knew a man like this was thinking of trading in his wife for a younger model, I wouldn't want him getting too friendly with my daughters either.

I'm adding to the story line? Are you being serious? You mentioned younger women. And you consistently changed this story.

 

[LinkH]

Hetta, the younger woman thing is mentioned in the OP, too.

 

[LinkH]

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

The OP says Bob hasn't picked anyone out.

You still miss the point. I'm prone to believe that your view is that Bob is in the clear until he actually signs the paper. Is that true or not? I'm of the belief that Bob is in sin NOW and the paper is the car wreck that everyone will be gawking at as Mary is carried away on a stretcher.

No, that's not what I think. I just don't understand your position. If it isn't a sin to break covenant by giving his wife a certificate and send her away, why would it be a sin to do all the things that lead up to breaking covenant and sending his wife away?

If divorcing his wife weren't a sin, why would it be a sin to contemplate it or move in that direction?

Again, the divorce is the end result of the sin in your scenario. For example, if you're on the freeway, and see an accident, you don't say "wow, an accident must be about to happen, we'd better be careful around here". No, you'd say "Wow, what a serious accident! Someone really wasn't paying attention to what they were doing. Just look at all the damage!"
The accident is the aftermath, not the cause. Your scenario suggests that Bob better be careful because he's driving by an accident, not realizing he's the one gone over the cliff.

Divorce is a conscious choice, as are the events leading up to it, not just an accident that happens.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

The OP says Bob hasn't picked anyone out.

Neither did Christ say that the man 'looking' had to have picked anyone out.

No, that's not what I think.

Then perhaps you can tell me your opinion. You've been hedging so far in calling anything that Bob has been doing 'sin'.

I just don't understand your position. If it isn't a sin to break covenant by giving his wife a certificate and send her away, why would it be a sin to do all the things that lead up to breaking covenant and sending his wife away?

The breaking of covenant has to do with everything that has led up to the divorce action, not the divorce itself. Your last point illustrates that a bit more.

If divorcing his wife weren't a sin, why would it be a sin to contemplate it or move in that direction?

Same answer, the breaking of covenant. I've given my answer several times in this thread to the same question.

Divorce is a conscious choice, as are the events leading up to it, not just an accident that happens.

You're right. However, the aftermath of an accident sometimes includes facing up to the consequences of your actions.

 

[sdmsanjose]

After reading a few threads on this subject of divorce I found an old thread of mine that I posted several years ago. I am going to repost it again because I am too lazy to study this subject for days. Here below is my post when I did study for some time

In Matthew 19 Jesus was talking to MEN ONLY. These men were men trying to trick Jesus and the men Jesus referred to in the Old Testament were men with a &#8220;hardness of heart&#8221;. Jesus was not addressing women in marriages.

The men in the Old Testament were divorcing their wives for any reason and that was not according to God&#8217;s plan.

Jesus told these men that only sexual immorality is grounds for divorce.
Jesus was addressing only men that were divorcing their wives for any reason and were violating God&#8217;s original plan for marriage.

Did the Bible ever talk about women being able to be set free from marriage because of the treatment by men? Yes, take a look at Exodus 21 below

Exodus 21

New International Version (NIV)
7 &#8220;If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

The scripture above states that if a husband deprives his wife of certain things then the wife is to &#8220;&#8230;go free&#8221;. God did not grant that freedom for only adultry

Notice the word &#8220;MARTIAL RIGHTS&#8221;.
What did Jesus say about how a husband is to treat his wife? See below

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

If a husband is abusing his wife he is not loving her &#8220;&#8230;as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her&#8221; The husband is NOT providing the wife &#8220;MARITAL RIGHTS&#8221;

Listed below is a very common vow that the man makes for his bride/wife
&#8220;I promise to be faithful to you. I promise to love, guide, and protect you as Christ does His Church, and as long as we both are alive.&#8221;

Now we can use our spiritual wisdom to present and answer the question below:

Do you think that God, who loves his daughters more than you love your children, is going to hold the position that a woman should be abused and devastated in body, mind, sprit, and emotionally by her husband, and say, you have to stay in the marriage even if it destroys you?

I do not claim to know all the answers to this much debated topic. However, I know that the overall view of God&#8217;s loving nature should also considered. God's loving nature is not going to force His daughter to be destroyed by a husband that is not following God's plan and Jesus' teaching on how husbands should treat their wives. Besides, there is scripture (Exodus and Ephesians) that speaks to the women that are deprived or abused.

My above post was my thoughts and mostly based on the scriptures in Exodus and Ephesians. So that was my scripture based opinion.

Now I am going to make a few statements after reading ValleyGal&#8217;s post; some of which are reprinted below:

But we don't live in an ideal world. This is why we have divorce. It is the merciful side of a loving God of justice.

I firmly stand on what Paul says in Romans, that there is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ.

my current marriage is more blessed and God-honoring than any of my previous marriages. It is more spiritually "legitimate" and grounded in the faith than my previous.

I stand on the promise that God's going to use all things - ALL, including divorce - for His glory and for the good of those who love him.

I have great admiration for the scriptures but I also know when someone is talking with the right spirit. I cannot pull up scriptures that say that what ValleyGal has said is exactly what the scriptures state but she brought out the character of God in the issue of divorce; the character of mercy and the fact that God will do just about anything, like allow His innocent and pure son to be butchered by evil, so that he can show his character of grace and pure love for the repentant.

Yes Yes I know that God is also a God of justice but God will and has trumped His justice with grace if a repentant heart is at stake.

ValleyGal loves God and God has blessed her and her current marriage. That is enough proof for me and, more importantly, apparently for God also!
VG's divorce and marreaige is not a sin! I say this based on the fact that God does not bless sin ad He has blessed ValleyGal!

As for the condemnation crowd; well ValleyGal mentioned a very powerful scripture (there is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ.)
that is so consistent with Christ&#8217;s sacrifice on the cross.

Although VG's exact statement cannot be reprinted from scriptures (Except the Romans scripture) her statements are so much in the SPIRIT of the love, mercy and grace of God.

 

[Scottmcc1]

The OP example says to me Bob never was really a Christian from the start. People need to be taught to recognize Christians. John 13:34,35 loving others is the fruit of Christianity. Not ability to say correct doctrine.

Knowing the Bible allows us to live for Christ more effectively. Love for others needs to be nurtured and grown throughout our life.

We are to be taught to follow Jesus' teachings Matt 28:18-20

Because the sex drive is SOOOO EXTREMELY dominant, many will not hear anything else.

Jesus offers a way out of being dominated by our flesh. Romans 7:21-8:2

 

[Hetta]

It's a shame that when you make the effort to stress certain words, you don't spell one correctly. You might want to change "dominate" to "dominant".

 

[Scottmcc1]

It's a shame that when you make the effort to stress certain words, you don't spell one correctly. You might want to change "dominate" to "dominant".

Thanks for the heads up. But actually I could have said both.

 

[Hetta]

Thanks for the heads up. But actually I could have said both.

Not in that context you can't. "Sex drive is dominant" or "sex drive dominates" but never "sex drive is dominate" because dominate is a verb. But you changed it, so here endeth the grammar lesson.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

.

 

[LinkH]

Neither did Christ say that the man 'looking' had to have picked anyone out.

If a man looks on a woman to lust after her, he is looking at someone. I didn't say whether Bob did this or not in the OP.

Then perhaps you can tell me your opinion. You've been hedging so far in calling anything that Bob has been doing 'sin'.

Probably a guy in that position has some sin in his heart. But that isn't the issue the whole post is about. We could imagine that Bob hasn't been looking on other people with lust but he's bored and discontent with his marriage, and wanting to change something in his life. He is an imaginary character after all.

The breaking of covenant has to do with everything that has led up to the divorce action, not the divorce itself. Your last point illustrates that a bit more.

What I don't understand about your position is that you seem to think there are a series of sinful events leading up to a divorce, but the events they are leading up to isn't sinful.

If it is a sin for a man to be disloyal and make plans to divorce his wife, why isn't what he is planning to do also sinful? You never did answer me about cases where a couple marry in Vegas, both consider it to be a mistake and to be in one another's best interest to get a divorce. Why would that be sinful if it weren't sinful for them to divorce?

God hates divorce, or 'putting away.' Giving the divorce certificate was the last step before putting her away in a legal divorce. So why would God hate the series of sins leading up to giving the divorce certificate, hate the sending of her away afterward, but not hate that the man gave her the certificate? Let's restrict this to cases of a man putting away his wife for being bored with her, not getting along with her, or other offenses that aren't nearly as 'big' as adultery or unfaithfulness.

 

[ValleyGal]

If someone is bored and discontent in their marriage, they need to stop thinking so selfishly and start investing more in it. There are those even on this board who are bored and discontent in their marriages, but who work very hard at loving their spouse in spite of how they feel. That is love. It is selflessness. In your OP, the sin is the self-centred and selfish nature of the man. Not in the possible divorce itself. The divorce would be the result of his pursuit of selfish desires.

 

[Avniel]

If someone is bored and discontent in their marriage, they need to stop thinking so selfishly and start investing more in it. There are those even on this board who are bored and discontent in their marriages, but who work very hard at loving their spouse in spite of how they feel. That is love. It is selflessness. In your OP, the sin is the self-centred and selfish nature of the man. Not in the possible divorce itself. The divorce would be the result of his pursuit of selfish desires.

So then any divorce is a result of selfishness. You basically are saying anyone that initiates a divorce is selfish.

 

[Avniel]

Really. That's all you got out of my post. I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

No that's just the part of the statement I found most disturbing.