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Is It A Sin to touch?
- Thread starter gtsecc
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Tangnefedd
A Liberal Christian
The Bible isn't the word of God, it is the authors' perception of God VERY different!
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Tangnefedd
A Liberal Christian
What evidence is there that any of it came from God? If it did, then God doesn't come out of it very well, the OT is full of mayhem and violence allegedly at the instigation of the deity!
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Tangnefedd
A Liberal Christian
The Bible can be made to say ANYTHING folk want it to say. I am sure I could find some verse to suit any prophesy I might choose to make!
I live in one of the most haunted houses in the UK where the range of phenomena we experience would make some folk think spirits came back from the dead, but we think that one day science with provide us with an natural explanation!
I live in one of the most haunted houses in the UK where the range of phenomena we experience would make some folk think spirits came back from the dead, but we think that one day science with provide us with an natural explanation!
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Greyshade89
Senior Veteran
You've probably heard this before. Just out of curiousity..do you believe in Jesus? To be a christian and not believe the word of God is true..thats kind of like determining someone is gulity without looking at evidence. Besides..you have no proof the Bible isnt His word. Also..one more question..Tangnefedd said:
..if you dont believe in the Bible...what do you base your standards on?
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Tangnefedd
A Liberal Christian
No I don't think I said anywhere that I didn't believe in God, did I? Just not the God as the Bible would have us believe in him! As for Jesus well I think he existed. I call myself a Christian, albeit an out of sight liberal one, because I think Christianity probably is more in tune with my thinking than other faiths, but I haven't signed up to the whole package only the bits that make sense to me!
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Greyshade89
Senior Veteran
I didnt say you didnt believe in God. What I dont understand is how you can believe in God without His word. His word is the evidence of Him. Without believing His word...how do you gather God? Sorry just confused. Let me try to ask this more clearly..cause Im not making sense. You believe in God..but..God was first introduced through the Bible which was His works and words. Isnt that kind of a parody? Making an imatation of God and turning all of His words and rules around to suit you because you dont want to believe in the God that is defined in the Bible?...Im sorry..Im just curious..cause Ive heard a few on the site mention it and I just have questions lol.Tangnefedd said:
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Tangnefedd
A Liberal Christian
Whisper, I believe that a deity probably kicked off the universe, it makes about as much sense as in not believing in an intelligent design. But the creation story in the Bible doesn't have any credibility, it is just the way the ancients tried to expain how we got here. I believe there are many creation stories depending on your faith. The Bible is just another holy book, imo!
I think that we have a spark of the divine within our psyche, God if you like, which we can access or not as the case might be. Only through us can God be a source for good, I don't think he can be activated unless we choose to do so. Everyone of whatever religion can access God, I don't believe he is confined to Christianity. I think folks of all faiths and none will go on to a higher plain when they die.
I don't pretend I am necessarily right in my thinking, doubt is always healthy, imo, but I can only believe in what makes sense to me as I pursue the spiritual path. I might change my views, I don't know.
I think that we have a spark of the divine within our psyche, God if you like, which we can access or not as the case might be. Only through us can God be a source for good, I don't think he can be activated unless we choose to do so. Everyone of whatever religion can access God, I don't believe he is confined to Christianity. I think folks of all faiths and none will go on to a higher plain when they die.
I don't pretend I am necessarily right in my thinking, doubt is always healthy, imo, but I can only believe in what makes sense to me as I pursue the spiritual path. I might change my views, I don't know.
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Tangnefedd
A Liberal Christian
I am not sure it makes all that much sense to me either, but more sense than what is in the Bible imo!
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Greyshade89
Senior Veteran
Ah, the Bibles great..you just have to get into real deep..if you dont believe in it..Id say just read it like you would read any other book. Cause its just that great. lolTangnefedd said:I am not sure it makes all that much sense to me either, but more sense than what is in the Bible imo!
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Do I believe "M" is a sin? Yes, I believe it is a sin because it seperates ME from GOD as a Christian when I engage in the act, and my lustful nature is intact whenever I have engaged in the ACT. The major jist of it is that the more I find myself NOT devoutly walking with God by studying the Bible, praying on a daily basis, and keeping with the fellowship I find myself more prone to "M". The reason I "m" so many times before (be it at college or home) was that I resorted to being a lazy "hermit" with no direction and had nothing to do with anybody outside of work or spending time with my family (when I was home staying with my parents and brothers) and selected number of friends. When I "m" I feel complacent and inaffective as well as ashamed afterwards. For me it is a sin of the heart because the certain lustful thought (a fetish) that is attached to me "m" is something that has been attached to me since I was a young child. Though, as a young child, I may not have acted out in "m" I still acted in lust in other ways that may have seen completely innocent. In fact, my parents or relatives would often make jokes because they thought I out grew this "f" mannerism or thought it was a childish phase I went through. Unfortunately, this was not just a childish phase and it is something that continues to affect my soul to this very day, even as a disciple of Christ.
I roughly began "m" at the age of 17 and have been doing so for the past eight (almost 9) years. From age 17 up until a few months ago before I really had any understanding of Jesus Christ and really accepted him as the Lord and Savior of my life, I was a "m" machine (and I do not say or mean this to be funny). I "m" on a daily basis and if there was a day I was too tired or pre-occupied then I made up for it later. I definitely did it when I had the urges and did it even when I did not have the desire to do so. Two times a day. Three times a day. I am sure I had a more than a couple of days when I just stayed in bed and went from sun up to sun down. This act consumed me for 8 years! I did not watch pornographic television-movies or read any pornographic magazines because a) they just did NOT turn me on and b) I was just appalled by the nature of pornography (definitely not criticizing anybody that has this addiction, as you can tell from the nature of my story). However, I did watch television (and even recorded the shows), buy VHS tapes-DVDs, and read magazines that were instrumental for me "m", but I could put them in plain sight because they were everyday shows and magazines that consumed the public. When I decided to take finding the TRUTH seriously and studying the Bible seriously I through all of these things away (and there were many) in addition to other sins that I was a slave to for over the years (such as certain music and being lazy and withdrawn from everybody).
I even "m" several times before I became a true disciple of Christ with the thought that I would get it out of my system and since I was not saved as I thought I had been a long time ago (and on many occassions, at that) I could do it without offending God because I was not one of his true children yet, but the difference was there was a sense of struggle that time around because the excuses I made above were not acceptable since I was studying what it meant to be a true disciple of Christ. In fact, I even confessed to the brothers doing the bible studies with me that I "m" and told one of the brothers (whom I was closest to out of the whole bunch) the nature of my fetish. Initially, after I was saved, I struggled a lot less with "m", but I still struggled with the urges. At times I even gave in and confessed my sins and asked for forgiveness, but a week or two later and it would happen again. One time I "m" because I had an attitude with God (really my attitude was directed at some of the brothers who expressed their opinions on certain subject matter, but I was once again frustrated with God for making rules that I deemed to hard for me to follow), but I repented, asked for forgiveness, and was mad at myself for not appreciating everything he has done for me, his free gift of salvation, and for choosing me to be one of his instruments. Recently, I have struggled and given into sin throughout this week and have been stress at the thought that I POSSIBLY committed blasphemy. I was not mad at God like I was before but mad at myself for falling away from God and giving into sin. I asked God for forgiveness a few days ago, yet I still opted to "m" afterwards. I have not been in touch with the fellowship since this past Sunday (I usually am in touch with them about every other day, if not everyday) but I am going to tell them everything that has happened this week, so that they can hold me accountable and encourage me until I relocate (which will be within their proximity - I currently live about 52 miles away from the Church I go to and the brothers and sisters).
I roughly began "m" at the age of 17 and have been doing so for the past eight (almost 9) years. From age 17 up until a few months ago before I really had any understanding of Jesus Christ and really accepted him as the Lord and Savior of my life, I was a "m" machine (and I do not say or mean this to be funny). I "m" on a daily basis and if there was a day I was too tired or pre-occupied then I made up for it later. I definitely did it when I had the urges and did it even when I did not have the desire to do so. Two times a day. Three times a day. I am sure I had a more than a couple of days when I just stayed in bed and went from sun up to sun down. This act consumed me for 8 years! I did not watch pornographic television-movies or read any pornographic magazines because a) they just did NOT turn me on and b) I was just appalled by the nature of pornography (definitely not criticizing anybody that has this addiction, as you can tell from the nature of my story). However, I did watch television (and even recorded the shows), buy VHS tapes-DVDs, and read magazines that were instrumental for me "m", but I could put them in plain sight because they were everyday shows and magazines that consumed the public. When I decided to take finding the TRUTH seriously and studying the Bible seriously I through all of these things away (and there were many) in addition to other sins that I was a slave to for over the years (such as certain music and being lazy and withdrawn from everybody).
I even "m" several times before I became a true disciple of Christ with the thought that I would get it out of my system and since I was not saved as I thought I had been a long time ago (and on many occassions, at that) I could do it without offending God because I was not one of his true children yet, but the difference was there was a sense of struggle that time around because the excuses I made above were not acceptable since I was studying what it meant to be a true disciple of Christ. In fact, I even confessed to the brothers doing the bible studies with me that I "m" and told one of the brothers (whom I was closest to out of the whole bunch) the nature of my fetish. Initially, after I was saved, I struggled a lot less with "m", but I still struggled with the urges. At times I even gave in and confessed my sins and asked for forgiveness, but a week or two later and it would happen again. One time I "m" because I had an attitude with God (really my attitude was directed at some of the brothers who expressed their opinions on certain subject matter, but I was once again frustrated with God for making rules that I deemed to hard for me to follow), but I repented, asked for forgiveness, and was mad at myself for not appreciating everything he has done for me, his free gift of salvation, and for choosing me to be one of his instruments. Recently, I have struggled and given into sin throughout this week and have been stress at the thought that I POSSIBLY committed blasphemy. I was not mad at God like I was before but mad at myself for falling away from God and giving into sin. I asked God for forgiveness a few days ago, yet I still opted to "m" afterwards. I have not been in touch with the fellowship since this past Sunday (I usually am in touch with them about every other day, if not everyday) but I am going to tell them everything that has happened this week, so that they can hold me accountable and encourage me until I relocate (which will be within their proximity - I currently live about 52 miles away from the Church I go to and the brothers and sisters).
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I think i have to say touching yourself is as much a sin as talking is, depends on the way it's done. Here are a few really good quotes from another site i read.
"I can only come up with three reasons why "thou shalt not touch" is not found in the Bible:
1. It's an oversight.
2. One must have special knowledge or be spiritual to know this truth.
3. Masturbation is not an inherently sinful act.
Number one makes the Bible incomplete, while number two is the heresy of Gnosticism.
By process of elimination I am left to conclude that number three must be true."
"Most of the arguments we see against masturbation seem to work because the person making them starts with the belief that masturbation is wrong. If someone starts with the question "is it sin" and studies the scripture to find the truth rather than to support what they have already decide the truth should be, the results are different. It is our prayer that asking "why didn't God say masturbation is sin" will help people to reexamine the issue and find a Biblically sound answer."
From what i've read in the Bible: When that guy was put to death for spilling his seed, it was the meaning behind it, he was trying to steal from his brother by not bearing a child for his widowed wife.
Another example is when (in levitcus i think) the Bible talks about washing yourself in the Jordan after having sex/yada yada yada, most people fail to mention that the previous versus' talk about a lepersy outbreak, why this is never mentioned by people trying to prove it a sin? because it's detrimental to their case.
Science: the benefits of sex are based on [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], therefore touching yourself should be the same
"Sex is a very good impetus for the strengthening of the immune system. It has been tentatively proved that those people, who have sex on a regular basis, are much more protected against various viral diseases than those, who prefer abstinence: healthy sex saturates blood with antibodies. Therefore, sexually active men and women suffer from widespread infectious diseases such a flu and cold less frequently. As for sexually transmitted diseases, the answer is obvious: a condom makes perfect."
"American scientists, who continuingly study sexual possibilities of homo sapiens, discovered that the moment of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] gives a very powerful incentive to a large number of chemical reactions and physical procedures in the body. The speed of blood circulation reaches its maximum, whereas the oxygen-enriched blood reaches all internal organs, including brain, very quickly. Hypothalamus - the center for control of the hormonal system - also governs the work of learning and memorizing centers.
"
**i don't encourage sex outside of marriage***
I have also read from a few reliable sources that a study was conducted on the relation between [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and prostate cancer, to summerize the the study of the 10,000+ men who [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] about once a day from the age of ~22 to 40 had 40% fewer cases of prostate cancer; men who [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] fewer than 7x's a month was the base of comparison. this study said that these finds were very interesting, but not final. more research was needed, but it makes you think
"The idea that avoiding masturbation will somehow make a person less likely to commit other sexual sins is not Biblically supported, and we think such an idea comes from what Paul calls "self-imposed religion" in Colossians:
(NIV Col 2:20-23 )
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their selfimposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."
"Masturbating shows no sign of self control, or denying yourself to honor the Lord. As with fasting, not masturbating is denying your flesh and depending on the Lord.
This assumes that the Lord intends us to not touch, something He has not told us. 1 Cor. 10:13 reads:
(NIV 1 Cor. 10:11-13 )
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
Is masturbation a temptation to be avoided, or is it actually the means of escape from sexual sin, provided by God for singles, and for married folks who are refused sex? ..."
" It is impossible for someone to touch and not fantasize. Anyone who says they can do this is lying!!
We have heard this a number of times, but no one can tell us how they know it's true. There are reports of very young children self discovering masturbation (to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]) when they had no idea what sex was. These children obviously masturbated without sexual fantasies. If someone tells me they can do this, who am I to call them a liar? Isn't it easier to control one's thoughts for the time it takes to touch than to do it all day with the push of an unreleased sex drive?"
"We have heard a lot of explanations of why masturbation is sin, but we have yet to have anyone give us a good explanation for why the Bible does not say it is. Is there any other sexual sin which is not directly and clearly identified as sin in the Bible? There are passages which clearly label as sin such things as fornication, adultery, lust, incest, rape, homosexuality, and even bestiality. Surely the urge to touch is more common than most of these, and much stronger than many of them, and yet the Bible says nothing about it. If God felt it necessary to tell us not to have sex with animals, why didn't He also find it necessary to tell us not to touch?"
personally i feel that by running around saying "touching yourself IS A SIN!!!" (note, not stating you think it is) as if it says so right int he Bible is putting words in God's mouth. no where does it directly say it, or from what i've seen (my mom agrees with me and she reads the whole Bible about once a year) i don't see it indirectly said either. therefore by stating that it is a sin and that the Bible says so is a lie and heresy against the word of God. it is an on going debate with *opinions*
"I can only come up with three reasons why "thou shalt not touch" is not found in the Bible:
1. It's an oversight.
2. One must have special knowledge or be spiritual to know this truth.
3. Masturbation is not an inherently sinful act.
Number one makes the Bible incomplete, while number two is the heresy of Gnosticism.
By process of elimination I am left to conclude that number three must be true."
"Most of the arguments we see against masturbation seem to work because the person making them starts with the belief that masturbation is wrong. If someone starts with the question "is it sin" and studies the scripture to find the truth rather than to support what they have already decide the truth should be, the results are different. It is our prayer that asking "why didn't God say masturbation is sin" will help people to reexamine the issue and find a Biblically sound answer."
From what i've read in the Bible: When that guy was put to death for spilling his seed, it was the meaning behind it, he was trying to steal from his brother by not bearing a child for his widowed wife.
Another example is when (in levitcus i think) the Bible talks about washing yourself in the Jordan after having sex/yada yada yada, most people fail to mention that the previous versus' talk about a lepersy outbreak, why this is never mentioned by people trying to prove it a sin? because it's detrimental to their case.
Science: the benefits of sex are based on [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], therefore touching yourself should be the same
"Sex is a very good impetus for the strengthening of the immune system. It has been tentatively proved that those people, who have sex on a regular basis, are much more protected against various viral diseases than those, who prefer abstinence: healthy sex saturates blood with antibodies. Therefore, sexually active men and women suffer from widespread infectious diseases such a flu and cold less frequently. As for sexually transmitted diseases, the answer is obvious: a condom makes perfect."
"American scientists, who continuingly study sexual possibilities of homo sapiens, discovered that the moment of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] gives a very powerful incentive to a large number of chemical reactions and physical procedures in the body. The speed of blood circulation reaches its maximum, whereas the oxygen-enriched blood reaches all internal organs, including brain, very quickly. Hypothalamus - the center for control of the hormonal system - also governs the work of learning and memorizing centers.
"
**i don't encourage sex outside of marriage***
I have also read from a few reliable sources that a study was conducted on the relation between [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and prostate cancer, to summerize the the study of the 10,000+ men who [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] about once a day from the age of ~22 to 40 had 40% fewer cases of prostate cancer; men who [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] fewer than 7x's a month was the base of comparison. this study said that these finds were very interesting, but not final. more research was needed, but it makes you think
"The idea that avoiding masturbation will somehow make a person less likely to commit other sexual sins is not Biblically supported, and we think such an idea comes from what Paul calls "self-imposed religion" in Colossians:
(NIV Col 2:20-23 )
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their selfimposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."
"Masturbating shows no sign of self control, or denying yourself to honor the Lord. As with fasting, not masturbating is denying your flesh and depending on the Lord.
This assumes that the Lord intends us to not touch, something He has not told us. 1 Cor. 10:13 reads:
(NIV 1 Cor. 10:11-13 )
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
Is masturbation a temptation to be avoided, or is it actually the means of escape from sexual sin, provided by God for singles, and for married folks who are refused sex? ..."
" It is impossible for someone to touch and not fantasize. Anyone who says they can do this is lying!!
We have heard this a number of times, but no one can tell us how they know it's true. There are reports of very young children self discovering masturbation (to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]) when they had no idea what sex was. These children obviously masturbated without sexual fantasies. If someone tells me they can do this, who am I to call them a liar? Isn't it easier to control one's thoughts for the time it takes to touch than to do it all day with the push of an unreleased sex drive?"
"We have heard a lot of explanations of why masturbation is sin, but we have yet to have anyone give us a good explanation for why the Bible does not say it is. Is there any other sexual sin which is not directly and clearly identified as sin in the Bible? There are passages which clearly label as sin such things as fornication, adultery, lust, incest, rape, homosexuality, and even bestiality. Surely the urge to touch is more common than most of these, and much stronger than many of them, and yet the Bible says nothing about it. If God felt it necessary to tell us not to have sex with animals, why didn't He also find it necessary to tell us not to touch?"
personally i feel that by running around saying "touching yourself IS A SIN!!!" (note, not stating you think it is) as if it says so right int he Bible is putting words in God's mouth. no where does it directly say it, or from what i've seen (my mom agrees with me and she reads the whole Bible about once a year) i don't see it indirectly said either. therefore by stating that it is a sin and that the Bible says so is a lie and heresy against the word of God. it is an on going debate with *opinions*
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Greyshade89
Senior Veteran
Okay, this argument gets real old. No, the Bible does not say anything about masturbation. You will not find that word anywhere in the Bible. However, God gives us in depth information on what He would want us to place in our spirits. Saying you can and will touch without lusting is like watching a porno and saying...'Im not lusting..Im just watchin it.' No matter. Its just wrong. A definition of the word masturbation is self abuse. Considering that our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we gather that its not a good thing to "self abuse" ourselves. A guy using his hand instead of a woman and a women her...well you get me..is just as bad as the actual act of fornication.Manso said:
Thats just being selfish...taking a beautiful thing God created to be between man and wife and using it for your own pleasure.
Sex was created to allow man and wife to be intimate as Christ is with His church. Its vain to do it yourself. Just because the Bible never mentions the words..'Dont smoke cigarettes!' doesnt mean its good. Children have explored their bodies and have possibly had an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] but they are just children! They were simply discovering things on their body. We arent children. We know what does what. Its silly to justify it like that.
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KleinerApfel
When I awake I am still with You
Tangnefedd said:
Off-topic I know, but I felt this was important to ask;
after reading the above, I am wondering on what basis you label yourself as Christian?
I do understand many are more "liberal" than I regarding scripture and so on, but do you actually believe anything in the Bible?
Some things that bother me about your post -
"A deity?"
"probably?"
"no credibility"
"just another holy book?"
"Only through us can God be a source for good?"
"any religion can access God?"
And to answer the OP question, no it's not always wrong but there are too many variables, as some here have said already, so it can be wrong.
God bless, love Sue
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