Is it a sin to criticize a Priest?

[Luther073082]

yeah it is crazy
some people just do not like the guy...

... oh wait... I am one of those people... yeah...

is it really that big of a shock that the Catholic Sub-forum is not the host of the Luther Fan Club?

I don't expect you to be a Luther fan, but is it really right or fair that you treat him as though he's the anti-Christian.

Not like we're busy in the Lutheran forum making snide remarks about Leo X or Francis.

Look you can say what you like, that's fine. But is it really fair to paint him as pretty much the definition of evil?

 

[Rhamiel]

I don't expect you to be a Luther fan, but is it really right or fair that you treat him as though he's the anti-Christian.

Not like we're busy in the Lutheran forum making snide remarks about Leo X or Francis.

Look you can say what you like, that's fine. But is it really fair to paint him as pretty much the definition of evil?

I am sorry if I seemed rude in my previous post

Martin Luther was one of the animating forces behind the Reformation.

many secular historians will show that the Reformation led to a secularism of the culture as a whole, making religion a more private matter.

I think that this is very detremental to society as a whole
we also have the "Balkanization" of Christianity
yes there have always been problems of unity, but the state we are in now, unity is near impossible to imagine, some Christians do not even see unity as a goal worth working towards

so we have secularism, the death of the idea of "Christendom", the fragmentation of denominations, not to mention the history of bloody actions (to be fair both sides are to blame for this)

I am not saying he was a devil
I am saying that he had some good intintions, the Church did need reform at that time, well at all times really, but especially at that time.
Also, I credit Luther with being the intellectual juggernaut that helped make the Reformation the enduring phenomina that it is.
Among many they give this distinction to Calvin, I think that is a slightly distorted view of history. So to the fans of the Reformation this is a good thing, to those of use who are not, this is not something positive.

so while I respect him, I think his actions bore bad fruit

 

[Luther073082]

I am sorry if I seemed rude in my previous post

Martin Luther was one of the animating forces behind the Reformation.

many secular historians will show that the Reformation led to a secularism of the culture as a whole, making religion a more private matter.

I think that this is very detremental to society as a whole
we also have the "Balkanization" of Christianity
yes there have always been problems of unity, but the state we are in now, unity is near impossible to imagine, some Christians do not even see unity as a goal worth working towards

so we have secularism, the death of the idea of "Christendom", the fragmentation of denominations, not to mention the history of bloody actions (to be fair both sides are to blame for this)

I am not saying he was a devil
I am saying that he had some good intintions, the Church did need reform at that time, well at all times really, but especially at that time.
Also, I credit Luther with being the intellectual juggernaut that helped make the Reformation the enduring phenomina that it is.
Among many they give this distinction to Calvin, I think that is a slightly distorted view of history. So to the fans of the Reformation this is a good thing, to those of use who are not, this is not something positive.

so while I respect him, I think his actions bore bad fruit

That's a lot more fair. While you still obviously maintain your view point (and it's not like I expected that to change.) you don't paint him as the root of all evil.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I am not sure if this is the case but I remember reading in a prayer book called "Pieta" as a child it said we were not to do so publicly.

That is correct. I have read that too.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Do you want to know about criticizing a priest? I'll give you a straightforward answer. Take it for what you will, but this is what you will typically find. If you write a letter or confront your priest, he will ignore if you hold no power in the parish, either by reputation, connections, time, or money.

If you write or confront him and you have some sway (see above) then he will pretend to give a darn about what you have to say. He may even implement one of your suggestions/criticisms depending on your credibility versus the strength of your suggestion.

If you write your bishop, you will be ignored unless you have a lot of money. If you write the Pope, you will be ignored unless you are very powerful in worldly affairs or you are very very very (saintly) reputable in the Church.

I say this as a devout Catholic and a man that nearly became a priest. The way the Church operates is revolting. I know not everyone does this, but it is an institution based on humans who are very weak.

I just quote things...
Ask their perspective... see if i can lead it to a discussion.

I see results sometimes- and i keep praying.

They are human after all... but patience helps when talking with them. I do feel bad - they have a lonely life. They need friendships too.

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

I don't know how this got to be the Martin Luther thread, but IMHO, promising his followers that their entrance into heaven would be guaranteed if they would, "stab, smite, and slay the Anabaptist swine" qualifies him as evil. Then, there are those lovely treatises he wrote about Jews....

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I just quote things...
Ask their perspective... see if i can lead it to a discussion.

I see results sometimes- and i keep praying.

They are human after all... but patience helps when talking with them. I do feel bad - they have a lonely life. They need friendships too.

They seek and groom like minded individuals. If you don't agree, if you don't get along with their medieval mindset, if you can't be pigeon-holed into a particular aspect of ministry, then to hell with you.

They aren't lonely. They latch onto pride, money, prestige. They find ways of justifying their socio-psycho-logical-sexual disorders into their concept of ministry. They build up cults of personality.

 

[MikeK]

They aren't lonely. They latch onto pride, money, prestige. They find ways of justifying their socio-psycho-logical-sexual disorders into their concept of ministry. They build up cults of personality.

I wonder if there is a personality type that represents an unusually high % of Catholic Priests.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I wonder if there is a personality type that represents an unusually high % of Catholic Priests.

Not necessarily... it must be said that priests make up many generations. Each generation is a product of their generation and their seminary education. Keep in mind, I can only speak about North American formation.

The child abuse scandals were a product of the post 1950s thinking that priests were God's gift to the world and that any accusations against a priest should be shred or ignored. That was supplemented by a growing trust in psychology to solve all problems, from the (as we know today) curable alcoholics to the incurable pedophiles (which we know is incurable, but they didn't know.)

I found that God really calls men of all walks of life to the priesthood. Unfortunately, their handlers screw it all up.

We live in a very strange world between homosexual priests and reactionary priests..... not to mention the majority that find them both stupid.

 

[MikeK]

In general, are homosexual Priests known to other Priests or do they keep to their own circles? We the laity often have some inkling of a Priest's orientation, but we don't generally get to observe their interactions in their leisure.

Also, what is the most prominent way, in your estimation, that today's seminarians differ from the men who became Priests 25 years ago?

 

[WarriorAngel]

I think it applies to gossip & not respecting the vocation. Valid criticism is not a sin as far as I know.

Then there is this:



Continued- Priesthood - Criticism of Priests

Yes i read this a few years ago and when i see a thread bringing up 'news' [gossip] on priests - i simply want to add my prayers.

I think its not worth putting ourselves on pedestals and kicking them down.
It makes sense to just 'shut up' - rather than face the 'judgment' of doing it.

CRITICIZING THE CLERGY

Criticizing the Clergy

Yah, i dont do this to priests - and am currently working on myself in not doing this at all.

 

[WarriorAngel]

They seek and groom like minded individuals. If you don't agree, if you don't get along with their medieval mindset, if you can't be pigeon-holed into a particular aspect of ministry, then to hell with you.

They aren't lonely. They latch onto pride, money, prestige. They find ways of justifying their socio-psycho-logical-sexual disorders into their concept of ministry. They build up cults of personality.

My priest is great - he doesnt do these things. Very down to earth.
Everybody loves him because he is always smiling. [To everyone]

He is like myself on so many things... i dig that.

 

[WarriorAngel]

My 1st reaction to 'bad news' is worry - their judgment is harder than ours. And prayer....

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

.

 

[Luther073082]

I don't know how this got to be the Martin Luther thread, but IMHO, promising his followers that their entrance into heaven would be guaranteed if they would, "stab, smite, and slay the Anabaptist swine" qualifies him as evil. Then, there are those lovely treatises he wrote about Jews....

And the Roman Catholic church of the time treated the Anabaptists and the Jews significantly better?

For the record given that pretty much every hateful thing Luther ever wrote about the Jews was at the end of his life and earlier in his life he was noted for his tolerance of the Jews. I personally believe that his issues with the Jews where at least partially due to mental issues brought on by age.

 

[Azureknight 773]

I think not since if one is no longer acting in persona Christi then criticism can be done.

 

[Rhamiel]

I don't know how this got to be the Martin Luther thread, but IMHO, promising his followers that their entrance into heaven would be guaranteed if they would, "stab, smite, and slay the Anabaptist swine" qualifies him as evil. Then, there are those lovely treatises he wrote about Jews....

you have Anabaptist roots correct?

one thing I read about Luther was that he felt betrayed by the Jews
he took it very personal, he helped to "liberate the land from the yolk of Rome"
he brought back "purity" to the Gospel.

he thought that these actions would bring in tons of Jewish converts
when this did not really go the way he planned, he felt personally betrayed.
This is just one interpretation of history

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

Yes, I have Anabaptist roots.