Is Information Physically Real..?

[Tinker Grey]

Biologists think of life in terms of information, that is, information storage and processing

Yes, Biologists model what happens in reality in their heads. The information is in their heads. Information theory is a model that helps them predict what DNA will do. The map is not the territory.

 

[durangodawood]

This is an esoteric discussion that is my fault for beginning. But, I argue that all information is what a sapient being infers from the world around it. There is no information in gravity. That there is an inverse square law involved isn't coded into gravity. It is a modelling in our brains that allows us to predict orbits, etc.

The inverse square (if that is the thing I should be thinking about) exists in our brains. Information is us storing in our brains what we know. The information doesn't reside in this or that mass. It resides in our brains.

ETA: Reminds me of this quote from Hogfather (Terry Pratchett)

“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY.”​

Nor will you ever find an atom of information.

Well "grinding it down" to atoms is an artificial reductionism. We dont live in a world of atomic powder. We live among rather elaborate structures, some of which are a medium for various instructions. This has been ongoing on earth since long before there were minds to understand it.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Yes, Biologists model what happens in reality in their heads. The information is in their heads. Information theory is a model that helps them predict what DNA will do. The map is not the territory.

I don't believe that's true at all. I think biologists describe what they see based on evidence, like any scientist would... Not on their imagination, as you seem to suggest.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I think the real problem, is that I accidentally posted this thread in the Creationism & Evolution forum, when I thought I put it in the Physical and Life Sciences forum.

...So there are misplaced assumptioms and immediate mental walls being built. But that was just an accident on my part... And I just went with it instead of changing it.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I don't believe that's true at all. I think biologists describe what they see based on evidence, like any scientist would... Not on their imagination, as you seem to suggest.

I didn't say they based it on their imaginations. I said they modelled what they saw. The model is adequate to the degree they can use the model to predict what should or should not happen in the physical reality.

Their model is based on inferences based on experimentation and observation. Their model(s) is a good one if they can use it to make predictions.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Well "grinding it down" to atoms is an artificial reductionism. We dont live in a world of atomic powder. We live among rather elaborate structures, some of which are a medium for various instructions. This has been ongoing on earth since long before there were minds to understand it.

You can grind the universe down and find Hydrogen, Helium, etc. You can grind DNA and get adenine (A), cytosine (C), guanine (G), and thymine (T). You CANNOT grind down anything and get information. It is in the mind. It is your inference about how the world works.

It isn't reductionist at all. The OP topic is "Is Information Physically Real?" If by physical, you mean the physical processes that make/store our memories then, yes, it is physical. If by physical, you mean that information exists independently of the mind, then my answer is no.

 

[Occams Barber]

This is false.

After 50 years listening to the spin, quote mining, misinformation, wrong information, and the occasional untruth, produced by the Creationist/Intelligent Design leadership - I beg to differ.

OB

 

[durangodawood]

You can grind the universe down and find Hydrogen, Helium, etc. You can grind DNA and get adenine (A), cytosine (C), guanine (G), and thymine (T). You CANNOT grind down anything and get information. It is in the mind. It is your inference about how the world works.

It isn't reductionist at all. The OP topic is "Is Information Physically Real?" If by physical, you mean the physical processes that make/store our memories then, yes, it is physical. If by physical, you mean that information exists independently of the mind, then my answer is no.

There's lots of real features of the universe that disappear when we grind everything down.

How about life? Is life real? Well you certainly wont find it when you grind everthing to atomic powder, as that character proposed.

 

[Tinker Grey]

There's lots of real features of the universe that disappear when we grind everything down.

How about life? Is life real? Well you certainly wont find it when you grind everthing to atomic powder, as that character proposed.

Life is a concept. It represents real physical and chemical processes. It does NOT exists in and of itself. If we say that life is "out there" it means we expect to find entities metabolizing other entities in order to survive long enough to procreate. "Life" is a placeholder for a conglomeration of conceptions. Like "information."

See also, Emergence - Wikipedia

 

[jacks]

Is information a "medium"..? The "boundary" between two worlds? And that's why it's so hard to pinpoint what exactly it is..?

You're right, it is hard to pinpoint. Though I would say information is incorporated into our natural/material world (not super natural) so isn't really spiritual, nor outside of the physical realm. However, I think the source of that information is spiritual.

 

[Speedwell]

Maybe not... Interesting point.

Which returns me to my original question... What is information, really..?

"Information" is a way of characterizing patterns of objects, rather like "number" is a way of characterizing multiplicity. It's basically a mathematical model.

 

[durangodawood]

Life is a concept. It represents real physical and chemical processes.

Those processes go away when you grind everything down.

The first hurdle Im trying to get over is we can learn anything useful about this topic from atomic reductionism.

 

[Landon Caeli]

You can grind the universe down and find Hydrogen, Helium, etc. You can grind DNA and get adenine (A), cytosine (C), guanine (G), and thymine (T). You CANNOT grind down anything and get information. It is in the mind. It is your inference about how the world works.

It isn't reductionist at all. The OP topic is "Is Information Physically Real?" If by physical, you mean the physical processes that make/store our memories then, yes, it is physical. If by physical, you mean that information exists independently of the mind, then my answer is no.

Is information stored in neurons of the brain? Such as memories? Or is that only a hypothetical model too?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Is information stored in neurons of the brain? Such as memories? Or is that a hypothetical model?

I don't know how the brain works. I do know that if you damage the brain, you likely damage it's capabilities. You aren't seriously positing that memory doesn't reside in the brain, are you?

And, I already said in the post you quoted that if by physical you mean that the chemical and physical processes in our brains store and are our memories, then yes, information is physical in that sense.

 

[Bobber]

Not even sure what the OP is trying to get at by asking the question.

God creates a universe. So if you break down everything he created and give words to talk about such things well that's information. Is there a difference between gold and silver? Yes. Words describing their difference is information so what are we talking about here that even warrants discussion?

 

[Speedwell]

Not even sure what the OP is trying to get at by asking the question.

There are creationist arguments to the effect that "information" has ontological status as a substance.

God creates a universe. So if you break down everything he created and give words to talk about such things well that's information. Is there a difference between gold and silver? Yes. Words describing their difference is information so what are we talking about here that even warrants discussion?

When you are talking about "words" you are not just talking about information, you are talking about information with a meaningful message encoded into it.

 

[Landon Caeli]

You aren't seriously positing that memory doesn't reside in the brain, are you?

No. I just come up with thoughts sometimes, usually related to some modern philosophical concept that I've read about, or some scientific studies.

...I don’t have an agenda, So you don't have to worry about defending science, or classifying my arguments as part of some group.

 

[Tinker Grey]

No. I just come up with thoughts sometimes, usually related to some modern philosophical concept that I've read about, or some scientific studies.

...I don’t have an agenda, So you don't have to worry about defending science, or classifying my arguments as part of some group.

Cool

 

[Landon Caeli]

There are creationist arguments to the effect that "information" has ontological status as a substance.

Don't you remember High School, man..? Or college dorm conversation..? I'm just that hippy kid who always came up with the most out-there conversations to boggle your mind. I'm not a creationist, that's way too constrictive for someone like me.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Is information stored in neurons of the brain? Such as memories? Or is that only a hypothetical model too?

Information is a way we characterise how the world is arranged and behaves; in particular, the interactions between things in the world.

There are many different definitions of information, some of them considered more physical than others.

Ultimately, it always has some kind of physical representation as patterns in physical media (the arrangements of materials, waves of various kinds, etc).

To discuss information in the world, you need to define what you mean by information in that context.