Is homosexuality an Abomination before the Lord?

[rmw8855]

I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't speak out against homosexuality. I think they are saying that we shouldn't focus on it as the only sin worth talking about, debating, fighting against.

I know that is what this thread is about and I have enjoyed the discussion tremendously, but to be honest it is an easy sin for me to rally against because it is not my sin. If this discussion was about weight & self control in that area, I would have justifications, excuses, etc.

To answer a question asked earlier, I don't think God weighs sins on which is worse or better. Sin is sin. God is holy and he can not stand sin. Praise God he loves us so much that we are forgiven.

 

[Time2BCounted]

Hi rmw
Sis i have to somewhaat disagree with you respectfully, though i appreciate your sentiment that the homosexual is no less human than anyone else, and i DO agree with you on this point... However even Jesus told Pilot that the his sins were lesser than the sins of those who delivered Him into pilot's hands.

Also in a thread conserning homosexuality, i personally think it a bit inappropriate for someone outside the forum to imply we are wrong for stating our conservative opinions on this.

I believe in a discussion directly concerning the issue it should be fine to state a strong stance and post the scriptures which bind us to our doctrine.

No one is calling the homosexual a monster simply because we can acknowledge that some sins are worse than others.

As a matter of fact Romans 1 seems to imply that homosexuality is at least sometimes the RESULT of total rebellion against God, He gives them up to do these things.


Romans 1
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


That to me is an interesting take

I am only questioning why one would be oppsed to one debating it or standing against ordaining homosexuals, calling it into question and possibly recalling these representatives of Christ.

In my opinion the conservaative stance it to be against these things in the church, and being doers of the word, or stances should be active imo.

 

[ContentInHim]

Amen, Time. In fact, I'm reading Romans now and seeing things I had not seen before. The list is pretty frightening - homosexuality is indeed not the only sin, but the thought of God turning one totally over to their lusts - whatever they are - makes me look inward even more. Time is short - we must continue to help the Holy Spirit clean us up or we won't be all we can be.

 

[Tenebrae]

Paul's quote above seems to indicate that all sexual sin is more corrosive to our spirits than other sins like stealing, etc. Probably because the purpose of sex is sooooo different from how it is used by any illegal (in God's view) coupling.

I don't believe that the church should take any care of the political ramifications of the biblical position. Sin is sin - some is worse than others. Paul indicates that sexual sin is more harmful. Sexual sin includes but is not limited to homosexuality. There you are.....

I have to agree with this and say jolly well said.

I think sin is sin, and unrepentant sin will separate us from God, however I do think that sexual sin can have alot more harsher consequences on people

 

[rmw8855]

Hi rmw
Sis i have to somewhaat disagree with you respectfully, though i appreciate your sentiment that the homosexual is no less human than anyone else, and i DO agree with you on this point... However even Jesus told Pilot that the his sins were lesser than the sins of those who delivered Him into pilot's hands.

Also in a thread conserning homosexuality, i personally think it a bit inappropriate for someone outside the forum to imply we are wrong for stating our conservative opinions on this.

I must have missed that and I agree no one should say we do not have the right to state our conservative views (as long as we are not being insulting about it). I didn't realize someone said we couldn't state our opinion. The posts I was commenting on actually agreed that is was a sin, but that it shouldn't be the only sin we focus on - which I do agree with. In this case, however, we are responding to the OP so yes it is the specific sin under discussion.

I believe in a discussion directly concerning the issue it should be fine to state a strong stance and post the scriptures which bind us to our doctrine.

No one is calling the homosexual a monster simply because we can acknowledge that some sins are worse than others.

As a matter of fact Romans 1 seems to imply that homosexuality is at least sometimes the RESULT of total rebellion against God, He gives them up to do these things.

I don't have a problem with any of that Time. To be honest, I feel that all sin is rebellion against God in one form or another. I chose not to create an heirarchy of sin - I will leave that up to God. For all I know you may be right.

Romans 1
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I never understood how people could read these verses and then say the bible doesn't talk about homosexuality.

I am only questioning why one would be oppsed to one debating it or standing against ordaining homosexuals, calling it into question and possibly recalling these representatives of Christ.

In my opinion the conservaative stance it to be against these things in the church, and being doers of the word, or stances should be active imo.

I agree we should stand against what is wrong & I believe homosexuality is wrong. I expect the world to be deceived (without God how can they know the truth), but I don't understand how some denominations feel it is okay to ordain homosexual priests / pastors.

I assume (I don't really know) that they are ordained on the condition that they are remain celebate. Perhaps the assumption is that everyone sins, so as long as they are resisting temptation it doesn't matter. Would we be any happier if we found out our married, heterosexual pastor was cheating on his wife or stealing from the church?

 

[ContentInHim]

I have to agree with this and say jolly well said.

I think sin is sin, and unrepentant sin will separate us from God, however I do think that sexual sin can have alot more harsher consequences on people

Agreed, sis. Sexual sin also has physical ramifications even if we get saved out of sexual immorality. We still have to live with the results.

 

[Time2BCounted]

Check this out sis

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=506

Episcopal Bishop Cleared Of Heresy For Ordaining Homosexual [FONT='Verdana', Arial, Helvetica]

[FONT='Verdana', Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
May. 17, 1996
WILMINGTON, Delaware (CWN) - Bishop Walter Righter did not transgress Episcopal doctrine when he ordained a practicing homosexual to the diaconate in 1990, according to a panel of church leaders on Wednesday.
Righter was only the second Episcopal bishop to be charged with heresy in the 206-year history of the church, which is the American branch of the English Anglican church.
The panel of bishops ruled that church doctrine does not specifically ban the ordination of non-celibate gay men. The panel said a 1979 resolution that declared ordaining practicing homosexuals inappropriate was not a clear doctrine, and therefore there was no reason to proceed to a heresy trial. The Episcopal church allows the ordination of married heterosexuals and celibate singles, whether heterosexual or homosexual. Righter, 72, said he knew the Rev. Barry Stopfel was involved in a long-term gay relationship when he ordained Stopfel as a deacon in 1990 in New Jersey. Stopfel is now rector of a church in Maplewood, New Jersey, and lives with a gay minister in the United Church of Christ.

[/FONT]

 

[rmw8855]

Thanks for the link Time Wolf.

 

[ContentInHim]

I assume (I don't really know) that they are ordained on the condition that they are remain celebate. Perhaps the assumption is that everyone sins, so as long as they are resisting temptation it doesn't matter. Would we be any happier if we found out our married, heterosexual pastor was cheating on his wife or stealing from the church?

In the Episcopal Church, Gene Robinson, Bishop of NH, is in an active homosexual relationship with his live-in lover. This was known when he was elected to the position. It's what is tearing apart the Church - well that and the fact that the Presiding Bishop of the USA said that Jesus is one way to God.

I have a lot of respect for a non-practicing homosexual - putting the flesh under Christ. It's certainly more than I've had to deal with. God will bless them for that.

 

[Time2BCounted]

my pleasure sis

 

[Tenebrae]

Agreed, sis. Sexual sin also has physical ramifications even if we get saved out of sexual immorality. We still have to live with the results.

Yup


(((((((((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))

 

[Time2BCounted]

In the Episcopal Church, Gene Robinson, Bishop of NH, is in an active homosexual relationship with his live-in lover. This was known when he was elected to the position. It's what is tearing apart the Church - well that and the fact that the Presiding Bishop of the USA said that Jesus is one way to God.

I have a lot of respect for a non-practicing homosexual - putting the flesh under Christ. It's certainly more than I've had to deal with. God will bless them for that.

Agreed, those who resist any sin for Christ sake are blessed and accepted under the blood when we repent and believe. The homosexual is no less than anyone, though their sin may be considered abominable and some sins worse than others. When i look at the scriptures i see at the bottom of every barrell is the degredations of the worst sins, and according to Romans homosexuality may very well be a end result of being turned over to these things for some people. This isnt something to be hounding and pounding someone about, but it is something we must stand against within the church to preserve any credibility of Godliness. We do have standards to remain within.

Yes grace is extended to all men, but there are those who make a mockery just to make mockery. There are those who will install homosexual clergy based on political whims or possibly even seekit predispositions.

 

[SolomonVII]

I don't think anyone is seeking to justify sin...

No conservative Christian here is trying to justify sin, correct.

However, with even some churches actively condoning the gay lifestyle for even their clergy, it would be inocorrect to say that no one at all is trying to justify homosexuality, in general.

rather just point out that we shouldn't allow Satan to trick Christians into getting tunnel vision on only one area of sin.

The tunnel vision in our society would be more against , say adultery, than homosexuality wouldn't it?
Does anyone in our society portray an adulterer/adultress who comes out of the closet as cool, for example?

Is there any movements underway to ordain adulterer's and their lifestyle in any churches?

If we become overly focused on just one are, then one of a couple things happens, either:

a) we compare ourselves against those who are "such sinners" and thereby don't think our sins are such a big deal...

This may be more true for liberals than conservatives. I see conservative sinners time and again struggling with the weight of their own struggles with their own variety of sexual sin, be it pornography or lust or whatever.

The idea of hell is very, very real for conservatives who take their bible very literally. There is no just figurative sense for the conservative that would make the torments of hell seem somewhat more metaphorical and less real. (I am a little more liberal than many here, in that respect).

So when nyj, for example, talks of the (small t) tradition that more sinners enter hell through sexual sin than anything else, many, many of us can relate.

This is not to say that pride is no less of an abomination. The deepest level of Dante's hell, after all is reserved for prideful Satan. So even if it is the shallowest of Dante's hells are populated with those of us who imbibe in sexual peccadillos, the threat is nonetheless very tangible all the same.

b) become proud, because we don't have to struggle with that particular sin.
c) become harsh/condemning (rather than reconciling) to those who do struggle in a particular area because that's the "unpopular" sin everyone is targetting

d) some combination of the above.

Well, as far as the sexual sin that everyone is targetting goes, that would be adultery, and not homosexuality.
On the contrary, homosexuality has broad levels of support in our societies. Many even conclude that homosexuality is not a sin, while no one concludes that adultery is not a sin -least of all the adulterers!

Honestly, I don't think that your criticism are all that relevant to this forum. The reason that homosexuality is often focussed on is because, like abortion, it is being actively legitimated in our societies. Conservatives as a rule (especially none here in this thread) are not making a stand out of pride or out of condemning hatred, or because we don't think that other sins -especially the ones that are dragging our own selves down into hell!- are not such a big deal.

It is simply because homosexuality is the sin that is being portrayed in books (now Harry Potter even), and television and movies as being acceptable, good even, and even cool- not a sin at all really!!

So because homosexuality is now being normalized like abortion once was in the last generation, it is the duty of conservatives in a democracy to raise our voices too, and state that disagreement with this premise.

And so I am glad to see that you are raising your voice too, in unison with us, and stating that, like adultery, homosexuality is a sin, and an abomination even.

For biblically speaking, and according to Christian tradition, this is exactly what it is.

And if these words of Scripture truly do reflect the Wisdom of the Ages, then most certainly for a society to enter into such a grevious sin, the wages of a society entering into such sin with whole-hearted acceptance will be the death of such a society.

 

[Nadiine]

Check this out sis

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=506

 

[Cromwe11]

My quesstion would be, HOW can we as conservatives NOT speak out or debate it when it is thrown in our face that homosexuality is not not only an accepted fad in parts of the church, it is not only condoned and honored, but a few people calling themselves clergy are themselves practicing it openly? We arent throwing it in society's face, imo its being thrown into the face of orthodoxy

I'll be real honest with you. I've been around the block a time or two on issues like this. I've changed over time in how I react to it.
With the various churches giving in to apostasy and accepting false teachings, those who remain conservative often react against this, as would be expected, and I would say rightly so.

However, I gradually began to notice that most of the groups of conservatives who are basically refugees from the liberal apostate churches constantly sit around and talk about what they are not. They spend all their time talking about what they are reacting against.. homosexuality, women pastors before that, etc. I absolutely disagree with those things but the temptation is to become reactionary. To let those things dictate our actions.

I'm not real interested in that anymore. I'm tired of sitting around talking about what I'm not, rehashing over and over how wrong the liberals are. It never accomplishes anything. It just wastes time.

Yes it is understandable that because these things are being thrown in our face we react to them, and they become the issue of the day. I just don't think its wise or effective to let that determine our lives.
All you are doing at that point is letting the enemy dictate what you are going to talk about and what you are going to think about etc.

Its important sometimes to find out where people stand ,its important to make sure people know where you stand on these issues, but allowing things like this to become the focus of our action has yet to accomplish anything in the long history of this issue, and I doubt that it ever will accomplish anything.

I tend to think in terms of strategy and military tactics, sometimes anyway. In my point of view, things like this are attacks which are design in part to push the enemy's frontier further, but possibly more importantly they are designed to distract us from our battle plan and get us so caught up in damage control and stamping out brush fires, that we are ineffective at anything else.
Once you get in that position, you are guarenteed never to gain ground.

 

[Cromwe11]

In the Episcopal Church, Gene Robinson, Bishop of NH, is in an active homosexual relationship with his live-in lover. This was known when he was elected to the position. It's what is tearing apart the Church - well that and the fact that the Presiding Bishop of the USA said that Jesus is one way to God.

I have a lot of respect for a non-practicing homosexual - putting the flesh under Christ. It's certainly more than I've had to deal with. God will bless them for that.

Ah the episcopal church... where even an atheist can be a bishop... now thats what I call equal oportunity

 

[SwirlingEd]

If you find ricks arguement well thought out and true, do you find him then saying that the conservatives make too much of it and we are wrong for debating it as we do?

I figure conservatives can make as much of it as they want, and no, I don't think it's wrong to debate it ad nauseam. My only question is, to what end? To protect the boundaries of what constitutes conservative Christianity? To try to convert people? To make a political statement? To make sure homosexuals know that you don't appreciate them being homosexual?

I'm not trying to be funny, I'm seriously asking. If you're talking about homosexual ministers, that's a different question, and not part of the OP.

 

[WolfBitnGodSmittn]

I figure conservatives can make as much of it as they want, and no, I don't think it's wrong to debate it ad nauseam. My only question is, to what end? To protect the boundaries of what constitutes conservative Christianity? To try to convert people? To make a political statement? To make sure homosexuals know that you don't appreciate them being homosexual?

I'm not trying to be funny, I'm seriously asking. If you're talking about homosexual ministers, that's a different question, and not part of the OP.

I think youve not read what people are saying Swirling Ed. Some factions within the church put it in our faces by promoting, blessing homosexuality and ordaining homosexuals.

Of course we are to stand when factions in the church challenge the truth.

 

[SwirlingEd]

I think youve not read what people are saying Swirling Ed. Some factions within the church put it in our faces by promoting, blessing homosexuality and ordaining homosexuals.

Of course we are to stand when factions in the church challenge the truth.

As I understand it, that is not the topic of the OP...

But I agree that if the organization you are a part of does things you don't agree with, then you should protest and lobby for change. You should stand up for what you think the organization should represent, and make your convictions known.

 

[Lisa0315]

I figure conservatives can make as much of it as they want, and no, I don't think it's wrong to debate it ad nauseam. My only question is, to what end? To protect the boundaries of what constitutes conservative Christianity? To try to convert people? To make a political statement? To make sure homosexuals know that you don't appreciate them being homosexual?

I'm not trying to be funny, I'm seriously asking. If you're talking about homosexual ministers, that's a different question, and not part of the OP.

I agree! If we are debating on whether or not homosexuality is a sin, then, yes. If we are making sure our church is practicing what is Scriptural, again, yes. If we are just letting people know what we think of their lifestyle, then, that is NOT our place, imo.

Lisa