Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
This has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere on the site, but the long and short of it is: The Hebrew word translated as 'to lie with' in this particular verse is used everywhere else in the Bible as a word to mean coerced sex, i.e. rape. So it would appear that the original intent of this verse was to condemn coerced sex with men, as this was not permitted the way it was permitted with one's wife.
Homosexuality is no more a choice than eye color. And where in Genesis did God state that homosexuality is an abomination?Yes it is.Homosexuality is a choice to sin against God,he said its an abomination in Genesis.He created men and women differently to reproduce,he gave that command in Genesis.One thing I have to say though,he didnt however tell us to hate them.No more than a thief,liar or any other sin.We are to love and pray for them,and let God deal with them,that doesnt mean we have to say what life they have chosen is ok,in fact we are told to not go after people who choose to live ungodly lives.
In both 20:12 and 13, the word for lie is Shakab - which is the Hebrew word used to denote non-consensual sex. The word in 20:16 is raba, which is only used in relation to sleeping with animals.The entire chapter talks about several sins of similarity.
Lev 20-12 - If a man lies with a daughter-in-law both of them shall be put to death
So it's not a wanton verse but you made the arguement that it is forced sex well...
13- If a man lies with a man as with a woman both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.
No matter how you try to spin it the intent is pretty well set. and if you meant consesual sex is OK, than maybe check.
Levitcus 20 :16 if a woman goes up to any animal to mate with it, the woman and the animal shall be slain; their lives are forfeit.
So in 16 it is even any kind consensual or forced act of bestiality is condemned.
You can try Spinning your tires in the mud all you want but you won't move anywhere without proper traction.
. God creates us, He makes us who we are- ...
I do not believe God would deliberately make someone born with a sin they cannot escape from.
we're discussing lev 20. וְ
וְאִ֗ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֨ר יִשְׁכַּ֤ב אֶת־זָכָר֙ מִשְׁכְּבֵ֣י אִשָּׁ֔ה תֹּועֵבָ֥ה עָשׂ֖וּ שְׁנֵיהֶ֑ם מֹ֥ות יוּמָ֖תוּ דְּמֵיהֶ֥ם בָּֽם׃
Leviticus 18:21 -22 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through [the fire] to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I [am] the LORD. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
According to the respected Keil and Delitzsch Biblical commentary, Moloch was a Canaanite idol. These commentators believe going through the fire was a ceremony in which children were dedicated to the god Moloch. Immediately after a prohibition has been given to worshipping a pagan idol, by dedicating children to a pagan god, we see the what appears to be a prohibition of men having sexual intercourse with other men. The immediate context of this verse is worshipping other gods. Because the immediate context is worshipping pagan gods, one cannot be sure if this is a prohibition against gay relationships. This could be a prohibition against having sex with a man as a form of worshipping another god.
R.K. Harrison, author of the Leviticus volume of the Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries, indicates homosexual relationships played a role in cultic worship rituals. Harrison states there may have been homosexual activities as part of the worship rituals to the goddess Ishtar.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
The context of this verse is very much like the context of Leviticus Chapter 18. The authors of the New Jerome Biblical Commentary point out that Chapter 20 outlines the sanctions placed on people who violated the commands in Leviticus Chapter 18. That means the sanctions listed in Chapter 20 against same-gender sexual relationships are about sanctions placed on those who worship other gods.
We are not sure how much of an issue sex between men was at this time. The Jewish commentator Bamberger, in his commentary on Leviticus, mentions that there is no record of the death sentence being carried out by Jewish people for violating this prohibition.
This text speaks to gay people. God is calling gay people to stop the self-destructive sin of worshipping other gods. This sin robs gay people of life, of the joy of living. Homosexuals can heal and become healing agents when they refuse to worship pagan gods. Those pagan gods include the god of public opinion - doing what society expects, the god of family approval - doing what one's family wants, the god of church blessing - acting exactly how the church demands and the god of following abusive or deceived pastors - attending the churches of abusive pastors and supporting their ministry with offerings. When gay people turn away from these harmful gods, they can serve the True God and humanity with liberty.
Leviticus 18:22 states: "Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination." The term abomination (to'ebah) is a religious term, usually reserved for use against idolatry; it does not mean a moral evil. The verse seems to refer to temple prostitution, which was a common practice in the rest of the Middle East at that time. Qadesh referred to male religious prostitutes. (See the discussion of Deuteronomy)
Leviticus 20:13 states: "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they should surely be put to death....". The passage is surrounded by prohibitions against incest, bestiality, adultery and intercourse during a woman's period. But this verse is the only one in the series which uses the religious term abomination; it seems also to be directed against temple prostitution.
These passages are part of the Jewish Holiness Code which also:
permits polygamy
prohibits sexual intercourse when a woman has her period,
bans tattoos
prohibits eating rare meat
bans wearing clothes that are made from a blend of textiles
prohibits cross-breeding livestock
bans sowing a field with mixed seed
prohibits eating pigs, rabbits, or some forms of seafood
requires Saturday to be reserved as the Sabbath
Churches have abandoned the Holiness Code; it is no longer binding on modern-day Christians. They can wear tattoos, eat shrimp, wear polyester-cotton blends and engage in temple prostitution without violating this particular section of the Bible. Although this code is obsolete for Christians, many clergy still focus on those passages which deal with homosexuality.
Source: OCRT: Bible and Homosexuality
It is likely that the prohibition thou shall not lie with a male as with a woman came about for one of the following reasons:
Only sexual acts which could lead to procreation were valued as the tribes needed to grow in numbers in order to survive.
Male homosexual sex may have been connected in the Hebrew mind with idolatry. Notice that Lev. 18:2 deals with idolatry. In fact many of the prohibitions in the Holiness Code were probably connected with idolatrous practices, see 19:26-29.
Women were second class citizens in the Hebrew culture and were generally treated as property. If a man was penetrated in sexual intercourse he was being treated like a woman and so was degraded in the Hebrew mind. The offense was not that this was a homosexual act, the offense was that a MAN was treated like a WOMAN.
If this line of thinking is correct it would serve to explain why there is no prohibition against female homosexual acts in the Old Testament. Women could not be degraded by such an act as they were already not held in high esteem. There is a theory that the Hebrew people believed in a perfect order of creation and anything that violated that order was considered unclean or an abomination. A probable example would be that fish were considered the perfect sea animal, hence anything in the sea that did not have scales and fins was unclean. (Lev. 11:9-10) Cattle were the perfect cud chewing animal, hence anything that chewed cud, but didn't have hooves was unclean. (Lev. 11:6). If this theory is correct then the prohibition against male sex acts would be violating the role of the perfect ideal human: man. It would seem to mix the sex role of the imperfect woman with the ideal role of the man.
Even if the reader disagrees with the theories stated above they should take note that these verses are a part of the Hebrew scriptures often called the 'Holiness Code'. This 'code' is no longer followed by the Christian church.
In Leviticus 18:19 (which is just a few verses before the prohibition 'thou shall not lie with a man as with a woman') having sexual relations with a woman during her period is forbidden yet this is not proclaimed as a binding rule for today.
Also, 18:8 and 18:18 show that this code allows for polygamy yet this is now considered immoral.
19:28 prohibits tattoos yet they are not proclaimed as sinful by the Christian church.
19:19 forbids crossbreeding of livestock yet the church allows, farmers who do this very thing to worship in church.
19:19 forbids sowing a field with mixed feed, yet farmers are not condemned who plant hay and alfalfa.
11:7 forbids the eating of pigs, yet people unashamedly have a side of bacon with their eggs!
11:6 forbids the eating of rabbits (hares) because they don't have cloven hooves but they chew cud, yet some Christians love to eat rabbit.
11:9-10 forbids the eating of any seafood that doesn't have fins and scales, yet shrimp and lobster lovers are not told to repent by Christians, nor is Red Lobster picketed!
23:3 instructs that the seventh day of the week is to be the Sabbath, not Sunday, yet the Christian church disregards this.
Deut 22 states that a woman is not telling the truth if she says she was raped but no one heard her scream.
It is clear that the Christian church does not abide by the Holiness Code. It was a set of regulations which governed the Hebrew tribes but is not considered binding on the Christian church because there is now a NEW COVENANT IN JESUS CHRIST! The following verses talk about this New Covenant:
Colossians 2:16-17 "Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is Christ."
Hebrews 8:18 "For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect."
Hebrews 8:13 "In that Christ says 'a new covenant,' Christ has made the first obsolete."
Hebrews 9:9-10 The Old Covenant "was symbolic...concerned only with foods and drink, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation."
There are those who recognize that Christians are under a New Covenant and yet state that the Old Covenant was divided into three parts, civil, ceremonial and moral. They then insist that the moral part of the Old Covenant remain in force. This distinction can nowhere be found in the Old Covenant itself. In fact, many guidelines clearly have both a civil/ceremonial use AND a moral one (See Leviticus 19:13). Who, then, has the authority to decide "this is morality, but this is civil procedure and this is ceremonial..."?
Since the Christian church does not follow the Holiness Code it has no right to arbitrarily pick Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13-14 as still binding just because it seems to support a particular prejudice.
Source: Same Gender Sexual Behavior and the Scriptures
This paper is provided as a service of the Metropolitan Community Church of Topeka, authors Rev. Jonathan Loppnow and Rev. Paul C. Evans. It may be reproduced freely as long as the entire text is reproduced and unaltered, all attributions are left intact and it is not sold for profit or included in a for-profit publication. Copyright © Jan. 7, 1998
Copyright © by the author All Rights Reserved
The context of Leviticus 18:22:
This is a passage from the Mosaic Code that is often used to condemn all sexual behavior between two men. Although it obviously refers to male-male sex, it is sometimes also used to condemn lesbian activity.
The chapters before and after chapter 18 deal extensively with idolatry. We can therefore expect that much of chapter 18 will deal with the same topic.
Leviticus 18, verses 6 to 21, contain a whole series of forbidden forms of incest with one's:
Verse 6: relatives that are "near of kin."
Verse 7: father or mother.
Verse 8: father's wife.
Verse 9: sister or step sister.
Verse 10: granddaughter.
Verse 11: sister or step sister.
Verse 12: aunt on the father's side of the family.
Verse 13: aunt on the mother's side of the family.
Verse 14: uncle or aunt.
Verse 15: daughter-in-law.
Verse 16: sister-in-law.
Verse 17: female friend together with a close female relative of the friend.
Verse 18: wife's sister.
Verses 19 and 20 leave the topic of incest but continue the theme of forbidden sexual activity:
Verse 19 forbids sexual activity with a menstruating woman.
Verse 20 forbids adultery with a neighbor's wife.
At this point, there is a break in topic being discussed. The chapter switches to a condemnation of false forms of worship in general, and the worship of the Pagan god Molech in particular. Like many other Pagan temples, those dedicated to Molech had temple prostitutes. His followers believed that engaging in sexual activity with these prostitutes would please Molech and "... increase the fertility of themselves, their spouses, their livestock and their fields." 1
Verse 21 forbids ritual child sacrifice and names a Pagan god Molech to whom children were believed to have been sacrificed. The verse also forbids blasphemy against Yahweh.
Verse 22 is translated in the King James Version as: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
If the verse is considered in isolation -- as it is most often done -- then a logical interpretation is that the verse condemns all sexual activity between two males.
If Leviticus 18:22 is considered in the context of its surrounding chapters and previous verse, then one might expect that it refers to some forbidden idolatrous activity in a Pagan temple from which the ancient Israelites must separate themselves.
Analysis of Leviticus 18:22
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." 2
In transliterated Hebrew, the verse is written: "V'et zachar lo tishkav mishk'vey eeshah toeyvah hee."
The first part of this verse is literally translated as "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman" Many, probably most, theologians, Bible translations and biblical commentators agree that the verse is directed at men who engage in at least some form of anal sex with other men. But they do not agree on the full scope of the forbidden activities. For example:
The Living Bible greatly widens the scope of the original Hebrew to include all homosexual acts by both men and women. They confuse the matter further by not differentiating between homosexual orientation and homosexual behavior. They render the first part of this verse as: "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden."
On the other hand, many religious liberals have interpreted the beginning of this verse as referring only to sexual activities between two males during a Pagan temple ritual. If there were a liberal translation of the Bible, it might say "Ritual anal sex between two men in a Pagan temple is forbidden."
The second part of this verse explains what type of sin this transgression falls under. There are two types of sin in the Mosaic Code:
Moral sin is produced by rebellion against God. This seems to be the interpretation of most biblical translations imply when they translate the Hebrew "toeyvah" in this verse into English words such as "abomination," "enormous sin," or "detestable."
Ceremonial uncleanliness is caused by contact with a forbidden object or by engaging in a behavior which might be quite acceptable to non-Hebrews, but which was forbidden to the Children of Israel. Eating birds of prey, eating shellfish, cross breeding livestock, picking up sticks on a Saturday, planting a mixture of seeds in a field, and wearing clothing that is a blend of two textiles are examples of acts of ritual impurity which made a Child of Israel unclean. These were not necessarily minor sins; some called for the ancient Israelite to be executed or expelled from the tribe.
The verse is, unfortunately, incomplete. Its precise meaning is ambiguous. The phrase "lay lyings" has no obvious interpretation. Attempts have been made to make sense out of the original Hebrew by inserting a short phrase into the verse. For example:
The Net Bible® translation 3 inserts two words to produce "And with a male you shall not lay [as the] lyings of a woman." A man must not have sexual intercourse with another man as he would normally have with a woman. i.e. anal intercourse between two men is not permitted. From this literal, word for word translation, they produce a smoother English version: "You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman."
An alternative translation would insert a different pair of words to produce: "And with a male you shall not lay [in the] lyings of a woman." That is, two men must not engage in sexual behavior on a woman's bed. Presumably, they must go elsewhere to have sex; a woman's bed was sacred and was to be reserved for heterosexual sex.
Which is the correct translation?
Obviously, it is important for a student of the Bible to resolve exactly what behavior is forbidden: is it:
All homosexual behavior, by either men or women, or
All sexual behavior between two men, or
Only anal sex between two men, or
Only anal sex in a Pagan temple ritual, or
Sexual activity between two men in a woman's bed?
Also, is the behavior forbidden to ancient Israelites, or modern-day Jews, or all males regardless of their religion, or all males and females, or some combination of the preceding.
Unfortunately, there is no consensus on the meaning of this verse. Many people tend to select that interpretation that most closely reinforces their initial biases about the Bible and homosexual behavior.
English translations of this verse:
These are not a great deal of help. Bible publishers are under strong economic pressures to turn a profit. If a translation of Leviticus 18:22 were included that did not generally condemn at least male homosexual behavior, confidence in the translation would drop precipitously and their sales would drop equally fast. They are unlikely to deviate from traditional interpretations, unless they were preparing a translation specifically for Christian and Jewish liberals.
Some translations are:
ESV: (English Standard Version): "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is abomination."
KJV: (King James Version): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination".
LB: (Living Bible): "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin"
Net Bible: "You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman; it is a detestable act." 1
NIV: (New International Version) "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
NLT: (New Living Translation): "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin."
RSV: (Revised Standard Version): "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."
The LB and NLT translations use the term "homosexuality" That is unusually deceptive for three reasons:
The passage in the ancient Hebrew is clearly talking about male-male sex acts. By using the word "homosexuality," the English translation appears to condemn lesbian activity as well. The latter behavior is definitely not mentioned in the original Hebrew text of this passage. In fact, lesbian behavior is not mentioned anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures.
The term "homosexuality" has two distinct meanings in English. Sometimes it refers to sexual behavior (what some people do; their actions). Sometimes it relates to sexual orientation (what some people are; their feelings). One reader might conclude from an English translation that homosexual orientation is criticized in the Bible; others might assume that only homosexual behavior is criticized.
The word "homosexual" was first used in the very late in 19th century CE. There was no Hebrew word that meant "homosexual." Thus, whenever the word is seen in an English translation of the Bible, one should be wary that the translators might be inserting their own prejudices into the text.
You're having trouble understanding the fact that the people who translated the Bible are human, and thus, are completely capable of being biased in their method of translation, and are also capable of making mistakes? What's so hard to understand about that?I'm having serious trouble following the line of reasoning about how the Biblical meaning of homosexuality went from playing tiddly winks to anal sex over thousands of years.
The Catholic Church, like every other Christian denomination on Earth, is made up of human beings who are capable of hatred. What makes you think they don't just hate gays, and they haven't been using the Bible as an excuse for that hatred for thousands of years?The Catholic Church has a huge archive containing some of the most ancient texts and artifacts out there. They also happen to have some of the best minds studying those things. They also happen to be a place where homosexuals chose to go to make a living. Do you honestly think that if there was even the slightest chance that homosexuality was okay with God per the Bible, that the Catholic Church wouldn't be shouting it from the roof tops?
Do you have any proof that God exists, and that he is wise? If not, then your point is moot.Or maybe God inspired you to be wiser than all of them put together so you could come up with a loop hole?
Do me a favor and read these articles. They explain how and why homosexuality isn't a sin. There's no reason why you shouldn't read them, so I really hope you do.YES it is a sin:/Churches have abandoned the Holiness Code; it is no longer binding on modern-day Christians; I don't think God Has changed his Law's
I'm having serious trouble following the line of reasoning about how the Biblical meaning of homosexuality went from playing tiddly winks to anal sex over thousands of years.
I wouldn't be TOO seriously troubled about it if I were you. Galileo, while not being entirely accurate about the physics involved in the cosmos, DID know that the sun did not revolve around the earth. He was therefore charged and sentenced by the Church as a heretic. Back then the 'wise ones' of the Church believed that the sun revolved around the earth, thanks to the text in Joshua (10:13) where it claims that the sun stood still.
Were you just as seriously troubled when 'some of the best minds' of the Vatican claimed in the 1990s - some 400 years after the Galileo affair - that Galileo WAS right after all in that the sun DOES NOT orbit the earth ...?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?