Is Hell Really Eternal? (2)

[Der Alte]

Repeating the same the same verses over and over does not change what they say.
but now having become dead again by apostasy, and so hopelessly dead. There is a climax. Not only without leaves, like trees in late autumn, but without fruit: not only so, but dead twice; and to crown all, “plucked up by the roots. [RWP]
This is what the Psalmist says God will do to his enemies: Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Those who die without God are forever silent in the grave, but we who have our God shall live forever more!

Ps 94:23 And he shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the LORD our God shall cut them off.

Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Ps 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, [in Christ] and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Ps 94:17 Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Ps 140:9 As for the head of those that compass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them.
10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Pro 14:32 The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall vexed [go up as smoke] day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Irrelevant repetitious spam which ignores my post and does not address my post or my argument.

 

[he-man]

Irrelevant repetitious spam which ignores my post and does not address my post or my argument.

Irrelevant repetitious spam which ignores my post and does not address my post or my argument.

Repeating the same the same verses over and over does not change what they say.

but now having become dead again by apostasy, and so hopelessly dead. There is a climax. Not only without leaves, like trees in late autumn, but without fruit: not only so, but dead twice; and to crown all, “plucked up by the roots.

The whole Bible is a prayer? This is what the Psalmist says God will do to his enemies: Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.​

Those who die without God are forever silent in the grave, but we who have our God shall live forever more!

Ps 94:23 And he shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the LORD our God shall cut them off.

Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Ps 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.


Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, [in Christ] and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
​

Ps 94:17 Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Ps 140:9 As for the head of those that compass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them.
10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Pro 14:32 The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall vexed [go up as smoke] day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,


​

 

[seeingeyes]

The scriptural evidence shows that he did.

Is that a "yes", then? You believe that God keeps souls alive and aware in a state that should, by all rights, have killed/destroyed them long, long ago?

 

[Der Alte]

Is that a "yes", then? You believe that God keeps souls alive and aware in a state that should, by all rights, have killed/destroyed them long, long ago?

No, your question contains a presupposition. I believe that God consigns sinful unrighteous souls to a place of fiery unending torment. If I may suggest that you review some of my previous posts in this thread which explain my view. But you have already replied to some of them and your responses go something like this "I'm right and you're wrong! Am to! Nuh Huh!" But I see no need in reposting them.

[post=65874387]Post #5[/post], [post=65874903]Post #12[/post], [post=65874985]Post #13[/post], [post=65876808]Post #38[/post], [post=65903640]Post #76[/post], [post=65936055]Post #135[/post]

 

[seeingeyes]

No, your question contains a presupposition. I believe that God consigns sinful unrighteous souls to a place of fiery unending torment. If I may suggest that you review some of my previous posts in this thread which explain my view. But you have already replied to some of them and your responses go something like this "I'm right and you're wrong! Am to! Nuh Huh!" But I see no need in reposting them.

[post=65874387]Post #5[/post], [post=65874903]Post #12[/post], [post=65874985]Post #13[/post], [post=65876808]Post #38[/post], [post=65903640]Post #76[/post], [post=65936055]Post #135[/post]

A presupposition that you introduced: the burning bush should have been destroyed by the fire, Shadrach and friends should have been killed instantly.

I have never once said "nuh-uh" or anything of the kind. Feel free to quote where I did or kindly refrain from insulting me in this way.

I'm only trying to be sure that I'm clear about what you believe, which is that God consigns sinful unrighteous souls to fiery torment and purposefully keeps them alive to endure the torment for all eternity. Is that correct, or no?

 

[Der Alte]

A presupposition that you introduced: the burning bush should have been destroyed by the fire, Shadrach and friends should have been killed instantly.

It is not a presupposition to quote or refer to scripture.

I have never once said "nuh-uh" or anything of the kind. Feel free to quote where I did or kindly refrain from insulting me in this way.

That is correct, you did not say the exact words, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!," that is my summary of the nature of your posts.

I'm only trying to be sure that I'm clear about what you believe, which is that God consigns sinful unrighteous souls to fiery torment and purposefully keeps them alive to endure the torment for all eternity. Is that correct, or no?

That should be clear from my previous posts in this thread. What part of "I believe that God consigns sinful unrighteous souls to a place of fiery unending torment." do you not understand? That is what Jesus taught, in these verses,

•"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
•"the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
•"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings supported and sanctioned the then existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

 

[seeingeyes]

It is not a presupposition to quote or refer to scripture.

You introduced the presupposition (where it comes from is irrelevant), and then called me out for asking a question within the bounds that you set.

That is correct, you did not say the exact words, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" that is my summary of the nature of your posts.

Unless you can demonstrate this behavior with my actual posts, you are guilty of bearing false witness. Prove it or recant.

​

That should be clear from my previous posts in this thread. What part of "I believe that God consigns sinful unrighteous souls to a place of fiery unending torment." do you not understand? That is what jesus taught.

It was a yes or no question. I'll take this as a "yes".

Very well. What does it say about the character of your God that he keeps souls alive and in agony for all time and beyond time?

​

 

[Der Alte]

You introduced the presupposition (where it comes from is irrelevant), and then called me out for asking a question within the bounds that you set.

And you are still wrong the post you are objecting to was a response to this post.

.... And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them up—exactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
Is 66 "many will be those slain by the Lord" (v 16b). The wicked "will meet their end together" (v 17).
Fudge, Fire 119-154.

Unless you can demonstrate this behavior with my actual posts, you are guilty of bearing false witness. Prove it or recant.

Sorry my opinions are my opinions and I feel no obligation to explain in detail how I came to those opinions.

It was a yes or no question. I'll take this as a "yes".

Good. Sorry that I would not buy into an attempt to entrap me with words.

Very well. What does it say about the character of your God that he keeps souls alive and in agony for all time and beyond time?

It says God means what He says and says what He means. That to me is no different than God commanding Israel to attack pagan cities and kill all the inhabitants, men, women, children and infants, Deu 2:34, 3:2, 20:16, Josh 11:14, Ezek 9:6. Even ripping fetuses from their mother's wombs, 2 Kin 8:12 and God Himself sending fire down from heaven and burning alive all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, men, women, children and infants, Gen 19:24; flooding the earth drowning all the inhabitants men, women, children and infants, Gen 7:17

Is the God of the Old Testament a Merciless Monster?
A Discernable Pattern

From the above examples, we see a distinct pattern emerging from the judgments brought by God upon various peoples:

• God declares an annihilation form of judgment to stamp out a cancer.
• The judgments are for public recognition of extreme sin.
• Judgment is preceded by warning and/or long periods of exposure to the truth and time to repent.
• Any and all ‘innocent’ adults are given a way of escape with their families; sometimes all given a way to avoid judgment via repentance or leaving a particular region. It should also be noted that expulsion from a land was the most common judgment, not extermination. This pattern goes all the way back to the ejection of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden (cf. Gen. 3:24).
• Someone is almost always saved (redeemed) from the evil culture.
• The judgment of God falls.
. . .
Conclusion

After carefully examining the chief Old Testament examples that atheists use to label God as unjust, it has been demonstrated that their criticisms and characterizations are unfounded, and their understanding of the various situations flawed. Further, rather than living up to Dawkin’s caricature of being a vindictive, impatient, quick-tempered, and bloodthirsty deity, the image of God that instead emerges from the Old Testament after a thorough study is just the opposite; God is portrayed as forgiving, patient, and slow to bring forth judgment. However, He is also revealed to be a holy, just, and righteous God who will bring justice about in His time. In short, the God of the Old Testament matches the God of the New Testament.

While some may argue that correcting the skeptic’s faulty view of God is not that important, quite the opposite is true. An accurate understanding of the nature and characteristics of God is paramount; a fact captured well by A.W. Tozer who writes: “What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us. The history of mankind will probably show that no people has ever risen above its religion, and man’s spiritual history will positively demonstrate that no religion has ever been greater than its idea of God.”4

It is true that the Bible contains graphic stories of sin, evil, and death. But it also includes the overarching grand story of love, redemption, and grace. It showcases a God who asks us to not criticize Him about His acts of justice, but instead One who kindly encourages us to come alongside Him and grieve over a world that has misused the gift of freedom given it to do wrong instead of right. When that happens, and God acts in His righteousness, the world discovers that consequences exist for evil behavior, which is something the prophet Isaiah speaks to: “At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently; for when the earth experiences Your judgments the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness” (Isaiah 26:9).

So is the God of the Old Testament a merciless monster? After a thorough review of the facts, the evidence overwhelmingly demands an answer of ‘no.'

Is the God of the Old Testament immoral | God merciless monster | carm.org | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry​

 

[he-man]

Originally Posted by Der Alter

God Himself sending fire down from heaven and burning alive all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, men, women, children and infants, Gen 19:24; flooding the earth drowning all the inhabitants men, women, children and infants, Gen 7:17 God declares an annihilation form of judgment to stamp out a cancer.
• The judgments are for public recognition of extreme sin.

Exactly!
Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay <G2695> them before me. &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#966;&#945;&#769;&#964;&#964;&#969; to slay utterly; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#966;&#940;&#950;&#969;, later &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;-&#963;&#966;&#940;&#964;&#964;&#969; Luc.Sacr.12 (Pass. - A &#963;&#966;&#940;&#964;&#964;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; Jul. Or.5.174a ): fut. -&#958;&#969; LXX Ez.16.40 :— slaughter, murder


Originally Posted by he-man .... And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them up—exactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
Is 66 "many will be those slain by the Lord" (v 16b). The wicked "will meet their end together" (v 17). Fudge, Fire 119-154.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Psa 83:14 As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:

 

[DennisTate]

So the question, then, is: Does God want to?

Exactly!

I believe that God has infinite power to lead humans and fallen angels back to light -love -faith...… obedience......… In a sense.... the creation of Adam and Eve was a response to the fall of Lucifer........ in a way.... Eden with all its temptations could be compared with an opening gambit by God to lead all humans and all fallen angels to repentance.........… The name Azazel in many translations of Leviticus 16 verse ten..... does force us to ask some interesting questions......


http://www.christianforums.com/t7647325/

Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!
.......

I had been fasting on Yom Kippur since the late 1970's and I had always wondered what this verse could possibly mean:

"but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel."(Leviticus 16:10 RSV)


​

In a nutshell I have came to strongly suspect that Azazel is the fallen angel who will be somewhat like General Abner who brought the ten tribes over to King David or to Rav Shaul/Paul who repented of persecuting Christians and followers of God.

I suspect that when the fallen angel Azazel returns to the God of Abraham with his whole heart...when Yom Kippur is completely fulfilled....then a major step will have been taken toward the ushering in of a truly new era of worldwide peace where even the eating habits of wild animals like lions will be altered!

"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?"
​

(Matthew 12)

 

[DennisTate]

My primary point would be that if indeed Leviticus 16:10 does in fact indicate a future division and fall of the kingdom of Satan.....and a return of fallen angels to God reminiscent of the repentance of the King of Nineveh........ then if there is some hope for fallen angels/ fallen Watchers..... then there should also be some hope for fallen human souls?!


......The Book of Enoch...if it is inspired.... records that Azazel at the least felt extreme shame and guilt over his sins:

CHAPTER XIII.

1. And Enoch went and said: 'Azâzêl,
thou shalt have no peace: a severe sentence has gone forth against thee to put thee in bonds: 2. And thou shalt not have toleration nor †request† granted to thee, because of the unrighteousness which thou hast taught, and because of all the works of godlessness and unrighteousness and sin which thou hast shown to men.' 3. Then I went and spoke to them all together, and they were all afraid, and fear and trembling seized them. 4. And they besought me to draw up a petition for them that they might find forgiveness, and to read their petition in the presence of the Lord of heaven. 5. For from thenceforward they could not speak (with Him) nor lift up their eyes to heaven for shame of their sins for which they had been condemned.
​

 

[he-man]

Originally Posted by DennisTate> My primary point would be that if indeed Leviticus 16:10 does in fact indicate a future division and fall of the kingdom of Satan.....and a return of fallen angels to God reminiscent of the repentance of the King of Nineveh........ then if there is some hope for fallen angels/ fallen Watchers..... then there should also be some hope for fallen human souls?!

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition. [/FONT]

 

[DennisTate]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition. [/FONT]

He-man.... I personally am so impressed with the book The Vision by Pastor Rick Joyner that I read it over and over again. I think that there is something of amazing value in the idea that an arrow......labeled HOPE.... could knock a demon....... completely off a Christian...… and seemingly out of the battle that Pastor Rick was shown???!

"Let he who enters here abandon all hope."

The Hordes of Hell are Marching

A New Weapon...............
The "Galatians Two Twenty" level was so wide that there was no longer any danger of falling. There were also unlimited arrows with the name Hope written on them. We shot some of them down at the vultures, and these arrows killed them easily. About half who had reached this level kept shooting while the others began carrying these arrows down to those still on the lower levels.

 

[Der Alte]

Based on historical evidence, below, the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, Mt 13:42, 50" that supported and validated the existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).


Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

Bumping this to the front for those who have not seen it.

 

[he-man]

Bumping this to the front for those who have not seen it.

Bumping this to the front for those who have not seen it

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword, will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slaine of the Lord shalbe many.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharpe sword, that with it hee should smite the nations: and he shal rule them with a rod of yron: and he treadeth the winepresse of the fiercenesse and wrath of Almighty God.

Ps 149:9 To execute vpon them the iudgement written: This honour haue all his Saints. Praise ye the Lord.

Who could not honestly not know that there is no difference?
eternal punishment=eternal death

2Th 1:9 Who shal suffer with the punishment of euerlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

 

[James Is Back]

DennisTate are you a Hell No or a Hell Yes believer?

 

[he-man]

DennisTate are you a Hell No or a Hell Yes believer?

Who could not honestly not know that there is no difference?
eternal punishment=eternal death

2Th 1:9 Who shal suffer with the punishment of euerlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

 

[Timothew]

DennisTate are you a Hell No or a Hell Yes believer?

I don't think it's a question of "Hell No!" or "Hell yeah!", but a question of what is going on in Gehenna, what is translated "hell". But we don't have to guess at this or rely on the guesses of tradition. Jesus Christ Himself told us that the body and soul would be destroyed in Gehenna when He said "Fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna". I've heard the arguments that Jesus really meant "Fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna but really will torture the soul alive forever in Gehenna, but I'm only going to warn you about what he will not do and not what he will do". I'm frankly unimpressed by this interpretation of Christ's words. And this is interpretation is what I MUST believe if I am to believe those who claim "Jesus said He COULD destroy the soul in Hell but that doesn't mean that He WILL!"