Is Hell Really Eternal? (2)

[Der Alte]

... Today, as a growing host of evangelical (and other) scholars bear witness, the evidence for the wicked's final total destruction (rather than the traditional view of unending conscious torture, which sprang from pagan Platonic theories of immortal, indestructible souls) is finally getting some of the attention it demands.

I would like to present a concise summary of the case against traditionalism's conscious unending torment and at the same time the case for the total, ultimate, everlasting extinction of the wicked.

The Fire That Consumes (2) does not allow us that easy assumption. All three traditional premises prove rather to be false. The traditional doctrine turns out, upon historical investigation, to be a pollution from paganism via the apologists and their followers and not at all the clear teaching of Scripture.
2E. Fudge, The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of Final Punishment (Providential Press, 1982).

JETS 27/3 (September 1984) 325334 THE FINAL END OF THE WICKED Edward Fudge*

Fudge is just another scholar giving his opinion. Note the complete lack of any evidence supporting this accusation that the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell is "a pollution from paganism via the apologists and their followers and not at all the clear teaching of Scripture." Historical evidence presented several times in this and other threads proves that the Christian belief is eternal punishment did not originate in paganism but in pre-Christian Judaism and the teaching of Jesus.

Based on historical evidence below the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

•"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
•"the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
•"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings supported and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. Jesus was born in and grew to maturity in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).


Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.” (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)​

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum​

 

[Prufrock]

Was not Jewish theology and teleology influenced by Greek thought during the Hellenistic period? I think it's a simplistically explanation to say Jews during the 1st century believed in eternal torment based on Jewish tradition. We see very little discussion of hell in the Pentateuch or any of the oldest Old Testament books. To say that all of Jewish thought was monolithic on this nature of the afterlife (for Jew and Gentile) is not reflective of the historic consensus.

 

[Der Alte]

Was not Jewish theology and teleology influenced by Greek thought during the Hellenistic period? I think it's a simplistically explanation to say Jews during the 1st century believed in eternal torment based on Jewish tradition. We see very little discussion of hell in the Pentateuch or any of the oldest Old Testament books. To say that all of Jewish thought was monolithic on this nature of the afterlife (for Jew and Gentile) is not reflective of the historic consensus.

I did not say or imply that "all of Jewish thought was monolithic on the nature of the afterlife" People are free to present any evidence they think is relevant to any topic they are discussing. That is what I did. The evidence speaks for itself. If you can prove that the evidence I provided is incorrect or that I misquoted or misrepresented it please do so? Your opinion about the discussion of hell in the OT is noted. Scripture was provided for the quotes I posted. Then as now, I'm sure there were varied opinions on hell, and many other things, but the evidence I posted was supported by the teaching of Jesus as I indicated in my post. Jesus teaching on the eternal fate of mankind.

•"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
•"the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
•"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

In Matthew 18:6 and 26:24 Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

 

[Prufrock]

I don't disagree with the import of any of your verses. I just don't find them authoritative on whether the readers of this thread who do not meet a certain standard of belief will be eternally tormented once they die.

These verses, and the books they come from, were written long after Jesus had been executed. These are not Jesus' words. They were collections of sayings used to influence early church parishioners. They are an example of the developing ideas of eternal torment working their way into Christianity.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't disagree with the import of any of your verses. I just don't find them authoritative on whether the readers of this thread who do not meet a certain standard of belief will be eternally tormented once they die.

These verses, and the books they come from, were written long after Jesus had been executed. These are not Jesus' words. They were collections of sayings used to influence early church parishioners. They are an example of the developing ideas of eternal torment working their way into Christianity.

You must not have been reading my posts. The evidence I posted was from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud which records what the ancient Jews believed, before, during and after the time of jesus. Neither source was written "to influence early church parishioners." And being Jewish sources they certainly are not "an example of the developing ideas of eternal torment working their way into Christianity." If you are saying that the NT was "written long after Jesus had been executed. These are not Jesus' words. They were collections of sayings used to influence early church parishioners" please provide your evidence. I'm not much interested in every anti-God, anti-Jesus, anti-Bible theory that comes along.

 

[Norah63]

Ahh the old 'authority' argument. It is never solved.
Those who are crucified with Christ never have an authority problem.
Hell is awful, christians dont go and unbelievers want it not to be. Such is life.

 

[he-man]

Fudge is just another scholar giving his opinion. Note the complete lack of any evidence supporting this accusation that the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell is "a pollution from paganism via the apologists and their followers and not at all the clear teaching of Scripture."

Pagan Philosophy
Testament was influenced by pagan religious systems of ... disembodied existence of an immortal soul, as Plato taught.

New Testament and Paganism
Testament borrowed important beliefs and practices from a number of pagan mystery religions. ... derived from the pagan mystery religions. Of ... the hope of immortality
Each Mediterranean region produced its own mystery religion. Out of Greece came the cults of Demeter and Dionysus, as well as the Eleusinian and Orphic mystery religions, which developed later.[2] Asia Minor gave birth to the cult of Cybele, the Great Mother, and her beloved, a shepherd named Attis.

The cult of Isis and Osiris (later changed to Serapis) originated in Egypt, while Syria and Palestine saw the rise of the cult of Adonis.

From Egypt, the cult of Isis gradually made its way to Rome. While Rome was at first repelled by the cult, the religion finally entered the city during the reign of Caligula (A.D. 37-41). Its influence spread gradually during the next two centuries, and in some locales it became a major rival of Christianity. The cult's success in the Roman Empire seems to have resulted from its impressive ritual and the hope of immortality offered to its followers.

InPlainSite.org Note: Throughout history, Isis and various forms of goddess worship have played a significant role in our world’s religious and cultural makeup. Today, goddess veneration is still very much alive and well, and images of the goddess, in various forms, can be identified in every state and province. See Isis.. “Queen Of Heaven” The New Age that is about to dawn upon us will be, according to the occult world, a feminine age. - See more at: Goddess Worship

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
And what is the penalty that they shall pay?
2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

The question at stake is not, therefore, whether the wicked will suffer "eternal punishment." It is rather of what that punishment consists. Is it, as many Christian preachers since the third century have assumed, unending conscious torture of body and/or soul? Or is it, to use the words of Paul, "everlasting destruction"— in the most ordinary sense of those words (2 Thess 1:9)?

Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven, thou wilt drive them away; as wax melteth before the fire, the wicked shall perish at the presence of God.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you. 12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

Isa 29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum[/indent]

The traditional doctrine turns out, upon historical investigation, to be a pollution from paganism via the apologists and their followers and not at all the clear teaching of Scripture. The following is a summary of that evidence.

Is the OT silent concerning the wicked's final fate?
Without exception they portray destruction, extinction or extermination. Not one of the verbs or word-pictures remotely suggests the traditional doctrine.
The wicked will become like a vessel broken to pieces (Ps 2:9),
ashes trodden underfoot (Mai 4:3),
smoke that vanishes (Ps 37:20),
chaff carried away by the wind (1:4),
a slug that melts (58:8),
straw that is burned (Isa 1:31),
thorns and stubble in the fire (33:12),
wax that melts (Ps 68:2)
or a dream that vanishes (73:20)

Proverbs likewise warns that the wicked will pass away, be overthrown, be cut off, be no more, their lamp put out (Prov 2:21-22; 10:25; 12:7; 24:15-20).

(2 Pet2:5; 3:3-7; Matt 24:38-39); Nothing remains in these pictures of the wicked but ashes: The righteous tread over them with their feet (Mai 4:3) or survey their abhorrent corruption in progress (Dan 12:2; Isa 66:24). The wicked become, in short, as though they had never been (Obad 16).
Fudge, The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of Final Punishment (Providential Press, 1982).

It is silent, however, about unending conscious torture.
Isa 66:24 The prophet has unburied corpses; Judith has consciously-tortured people. Isaiah's fire and worms destroy; Judith's simply torment.
In Isaiah the fire and worms are external agents consuming their dead victims;
in Judith they are internal agonies perpetually torturing from within. In Isaiah (and all the OT) the victims are destroyed; in Judith they "feel their pain forever."

Because of this unquestionable range of Jewish opinion, we cannot continue to presume a single attitude among first-century Jews on this subject. We cannot go on reading Jesus' words, or those of the NT writers, with presuppositions based on a supposed "uniform Jewish view."

And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them up—exactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
Is 66 "many will be those slain by the Lord" (v 16b). The wicked "will meet their end together" (v 17).
Fudge, Fire 119-154.

 

[Timothew]

Ahh the old 'authority' argument.

Indeed. Does "truth" change when those in authority change?

What year did the world become round and start to go around the sun? Before the authorities changed, those who believed the earth was not the center of the universe were called "heretics".

 

[seeingeyes]

Ahh the old 'authority' argument. It is never solved.
Those who are crucified with Christ never have an authority problem.
Hell is awful, christians dont go and unbelievers want it not to be. Such is life.

Those who are crucified with Christ have only one authority...

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Your first sentence is loaded with assumptions.

1. Jesus was God.
2. What Jesus said about hell is accurately recorded within the gospels
3. Jesus' death made it possible to escape the fate of Hell

I will grant that these are long-held orthodox views. I would also argue that each of these propositions developed over the course of several centuries in response to various other heretical propositions. .

An assumption would be guessing that it took several centuries to "develope". The facts are by the turn of the 2nd century, the ECFs are well recorded speaking of Hell in the same terms Jesus/God is recorded speaking of it. To disregard this record/testimony of the early Fathers is dishonest at best.

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]

Second Clement​

If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).​

The Martyrdom of Polycarp​

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

​

Justin Martyr​

No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons (ibid. 52).

Kind of hard to argue in the face of this testimony that this was all fabricated later as it seems well established already by the end of the first century.​

 

[Der Alte]

Pagan Philosophy
Testament was influenced by pagan religious systems of ... disembodied existence of an immortal soul, as Plato taught. [No, zero, none, credible, verifiable, historical evidence! DA]

New Testament and Paganism
Testament borrowed important beliefs and practices from a number of pagan mystery religions. ... derived from the pagan mystery religions. Of ... the hope of immortality [No, zero, none, credible, verifiable, historical evidence! DA]

Each Mediterranean region produced its own mystery religion. Out of Greece came the cults of Demeter and Dionysus, as well as the Eleusinian and Orphic mystery religions, which developed later.[2] Asia Minor gave birth to the cult of Cybele, the Great Mother, and her beloved, a shepherd named Attis. [Irrelevant! DA]

The cult of Isis and Osiris (later changed to Serapis) originated in Egypt, while Syria and Palestine saw the rise of the cult of Adonis. [Irrelevant! DA]
* * *
From Egypt, the cult of Isis gradually made its way to Rome. While Rome was at first repelled by the cult, the religion finally entered the city during the reign of Caligula (A.D. 37-41). Its influence spread gradually during the next two centuries, and in some locales it became a major rival of Christianity. The cult's success in the Roman Empire seems to have resulted from its impressive ritual and the hope of immortality offered to its followers.

Irrelevant! No, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence. What Fudge or any other scholars says without evidence is nothing but opinion.

InPlainSite.org Note: Throughout history, Isis and various forms of goddess worship have played a significant role in our world’s religious and cultural makeup. Today, goddess veneration is still very much alive and well, and images of the goddess, in various forms, can be identified in every state and province. See Isis.. “Queen Of Heaven” The New Age that is about to dawn upon us will be, according to the occult world, a feminine age. - See more at: Goddess Worship

No, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence!

And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them up—exactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
Is 66 "many will be those slain by the Lord" (v 16b). The wicked "will meet their end together" (v 17).
Fudge, Fire 119-154.

The Bible records a bush burning without being consumed and three Hebrew slaves being thrown into a furnace so hot that it killed the soldiers who threw them in but the three Hebrew were not harmed not even the smell of smoke on them.

 

[seeingeyes]

The Bible records a bush burning without being consumed and three Hebrew slaves being thrown into a furnace so hot that it killed the soldiers who threw them in but the three Hebrew were not harmed not even the smell of smoke on them.

So you believe that those burning in hell will not be harmed?

 

[he-man]

Irrelevant!

The story of the three in a hot furnace unharmed is a fabrication added to the original scripture and is an Apocryphal addition to the Book of Daniel; added are the stories of1.) the Prayer of Azariah and the Thanksgiving of the three children in the fiery furnance; 2.) the History of Susannah; 3.) The story of Bel and the Dragon.

Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

The Greek text is extant in two recessions. The chief teachings of the Book are the Supremacy of the God of the Jews over all other powers, human or divine. The ultimate purpose is the triumph of God upon the earth and the establishment of a universal and Eternal Kingdom on earth with the coming of the Son of Man; the reward of the faithful in a future resurrection. Dan 12:2.

References: Driver, Prince, Behrmann; Wright; Kennedy; Bevan; Dick; Wilson; Charles; Montgomery; The Book of Daniel, 1931
A Standard Bible Dictionary Page 168-169 Funk and Wagnalls Company; Jacobus; Lane; Zenos; Cook (Oxon)

Apocryphal addition regarding the reward of the faithful in a future resurrection as opposed to 2Thess 1:9 for those who are not able to escape the cremation as predicted in Dan 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

"[God] is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace; either to prevent their being cast into it, or to preserve them unhurt in it, and to bring them safe out of it: instances of his power in other cases, such as the passage of the Israelites through the Red sea safe, when their enemies were drowned, with others, confirmed their faith in this:" [GILL]

 

[Der Alte]

So you believe that those burning in hell will not be harmed?

Is that your best shot, twisting my words trying to make it appear I said something I did not say? The Hell: No! crowd argues that anything thrown into fire will burn to ashes. The Bible shows that God can and did preserve things and people in fire. If God so chooses He can give people conscious awareness and punish them in fire as Jesus taught about,

•"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
•"the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
•"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

In Matt 18:6 and 26:24 Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

 

[Der Alte]

The story of the three in a hot furnace unharmed is a fabrication added to the original scripture and is an Apocryphal addition to the Book of Daniel; added are the stories of1.) the Prayer of Azariah and the Thanksgiving of the three children in the fiery furnance; 2.) the History of Susannah; 3.) The story of Bel and the Dragon.

Rubbish! Same ol' lame ol' cherry picked quote from some long dead scholar with no, none, zero credible, verifiable historical evidence. The account of Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah in the furnace is recorded in the LXX ca. 250 BC.

Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

The Greek text is extant in two recessions. The chief teachings of the Book are the Supremacy of the God of the Jews over all other powers, human or divine. The ultimate purpose is the triumph of God upon the earth and the establishment of a universal and Eternal Kingdom on earth with the coming of the Son of Man; the reward of the faithful in a future resurrection. Dan 12:2.

References: Driver, Prince, Behrmann; Wright; Kennedy; Bevan; Dick; Wilson; Charles; Montgomery; The Book of Daniel, 1931
A Standard Bible Dictionary Page 168-169 Funk and Wagnalls Company; Jacobus; Lane; Zenos; Cook (Oxon)

The Greek text of what? The book of Daniel was written in Aramaic and Hebrew not Greek.

Apocryphal addition regarding the reward of the faithful in a future resurrection as opposed to 2Thess 1:9 for those who are not able to escape the cremation as predicted in Dan 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

No, zero, none evidence that any part of Daniel weas added

"[God] is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace; either to prevent their being cast into it, or to preserve them unhurt in it, and to bring them safe out of it: instances of his power in other cases, such as the passage of the Israelites through the Red sea safe, when their enemies were drowned, with others, confirmed their faith in this:" [GILL]

And Gill contradicts your previous assertions that story of the three Hebrews surviving the furnace was an apocryphal addition. So which is it he-man?

 

[seeingeyes]

Is that your best shot, twisting my words trying to make it appear I said something I did not say? The Hell: No! crowd argues that anything thrown into fire will burn to ashes. The Bible shows that God can and did preserve things and people in fire. If God so chooses He can give people conscious awareness and punish them in fire as Jesus taught about,

•"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
•"the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
•"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

In Matt 18:6 and 26:24 Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

Sure. God can do whatever He wants.

 

[he-man]

Rubbish! The account of Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah in the furnace is recorded in the LXX ca. 250 BC.
The Greek text of what? The book of Daniel was written in Aramaic and Hebrew not Greek.

DELETED

 

[Prufrock]

An assumption would be guessing that it took several centuries to "develope". The facts are by the turn of the 2nd century, the ECFs are well recorded speaking of Hell in the same terms Jesus/God is recorded speaking of it. To disregard this record/testimony of the early Fathers is dishonest at best.

Most of your sources are mid-2nd century, but even so if I concede that by 100 CE, certain Church Fathers were "on-the-record" about the doctrines of Hell, this does not establish the truth of the doctrine. The mere fact that they were compelled to speak out regarding the doctrines of hell implies that there was controversy among early Christians. This controversy is demonstrated by the Apocalypse of Peter (in which Jesus states that all will be saved) being banned from the Canon according the Muratorian fragment, widely regarded the oldest known list of canonical books, but still dating from the mid-second century. To me it is most likely, that many church planters were using eternal torment theology borrowed from paganism to increase their enrollment. No all were. You don't cite Origen, for example, even though he was writing in a similar time, and was a disciple of Clement of Alexandria (c. 150), a liberal theologian of his day.

I do not think I'm disregarding the historical evidence, including the early proto-orthodox christian writers. The fact that the church was still settling on its central doctrines well into the 4th century with the Council of Nicea (325 CE) demonstrates that there were theologians on all sides of the issue several centuries after Jesus died.

The fact that certain theologies won out no more proves their merits than would the fact that Islamic totalitarianism's advancement in many parts of the world over the past 50 years prove its merits as a good political system.

Kind of hard to argue in the face of this testimony that this was all fabricated later as it seems well established already by the end of the first century.

If I were a 1st century pagan and was a approached by a christian missionary who said, "Jesus died for your sins, and wants you to repent of your sins and follow him", I would ask, "what happens if I don't?" I would guess more people were compelled to renounce paganism by the threat of eternal punishment, than by the threat of temporal painful but necessary correction.

Even if some leaders in the church were repeating what was earlier laid out in Revelation and various 1st century texts, including in parts of the canonical gospels, why should we interpolate that doctrine into what Jesus said on the issue?

As I said early on, I am not sold on Biblical inerrancy, meaning I think we are free (and in fact obligated) to look at the early texts with higher criticism. Furthermore, I think I can still call myself a Christian.

I think we are to look at all of these texts with an understanding that they were written in response to arguments that existed among those in the church regarding the place that Jesus should occupy in theology. Just because certain central doctrines won out does not establish their truth, only that they were more palatable to the followers and/or more useful to the leaders. Hell is one of these doctrines that we should be especially wary of, given the moral implications of its acceptance. Is the type of God we revere out of great respect and love, or out of unspeakable fear?

In the end, I think we have to ask ourselves whether the same person who taught us to love our enemies and bless those who curse us would intentionally torture his enemies and those who curse him endlessly and with no hope of redemption. I cannot in all good conscience believe that Jesus would save me, but not my family and friends. Especially when most Christians believe that the fall of man, and sin's entry into the world were permitted by God in the first place.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Most of your sources are mid-2nd century, but even so if I concede that by 100 CE, certain Church Fathers were "on-the-record" about the doctrines of Hell, this does not establish the truth of the doctrine.

And I did not quote those mento establish the "truth of the doctrine." I quoted those men to demonstrate the absurdity of posting the FALSE claim in this thread that this orthodox view of Hell took centuries to "develope". We have a historical record that indicates otherwise. Glad one is willing to "concede" the initial statement was a lie.

The mere fact that they were compelled to speak out regarding the doctrines of hell implies that there was controversy among early Christians.

Those quotes suggest to me men who were concerned about people's souls and what the corruption of false teachings could do to them.

You don't cite Origen, for example, even though he was writing in a similar time, and was a disciple of Clement of Alexandria (c. 150), a liberal theologian of his day.

Origen is allowed to be wrong. But he was right before he was wrong and we can learn much from him before he erred.

I do not think I'm disregarding the historical evidence,

Well my point in giving actual historical evidence rather than my opinion or just my thoughts was that to show the claim that it took several centuries to reach the orthodox view of Hell is utterly false.

including the early proto-orthodox christian writers. The fact that the church was still settling on its central doctrines well into the 4th century with the Council of Nicea (325 CE) demonstrates that there were theologians on all sides of the issue several centuries after Jesus died.

The fact that certain theologies won out no more proves their merits than would the fact that Islamic totalitarianism's advancement in many parts of the world over the past 50 years prove its merits as a good political system.

God said His Church would not fall and said He would send His Holy Ghost to protect it. The Apostles are shown teaching men and telling them to faithful pass on what they had "heard". Some of believe that actually happened and those teachings preserved for us today.

Where is the "gnostic" Church over the last two millenium besides just existing in the "thoughts" and "opinions" of a few today?

If I were a 1st century pagan and was a approached by a christian missionary who said, "Jesus died for your sins, and wants you to repent of your sins and follow him", I would ask, "what happens if I don't?" I would guess more people were compelled to renounce paganism by the threat of eternal punishment, than by the threat of temporal painful but necessary correction.

More nice thoughts and opinions. Anything to back any of this up?
In the real world, (not just my thoughts or opinions) I find what motivates many people to do/not do something is NOT the fear of the punishment but rather the fear of getting caught and it is the risk of getting caught they weigh in making the decision. Consider where the toughtest gun laws in the USA (and associated penalities) are also the hightest rate of gun violence for example.

Even if some leaders in the church were repeating what was earlier laid out in Revelation and various 1st century texts, including in parts of the canonical gospels, why should we interpolate that doctrine into what Jesus said on the issue?

No needs to interpolate when the men I quoted are speaking of Hell in much the same way Jesus is quoted talking about - eternal, never ending, painful, torment....etc.

As I said early on, I am not sold on Biblical inerrancy, meaning I think we are free (and in fact obligated) to look at the early texts with higher criticism. Furthermore, I think I can still call myself a Christian.

Do not recall suggesting anyone was not a Christian. But regardless of what we call ourselves, am unclear how any label could be meaningful if we are all "obligated" to re-invent the wheel and consider everything written with equal weight when so much of it is contradictory. What would it mean to be a Christian when the Church was saying Jesus is X and the gnostics saying otherwise?

]
I think we are to look at all of these texts with an understanding that they were written in response to arguments that existed among those in the church regarding the place that Jesus should occupy in theology. Just because certain central doctrines won out does not establish their truth, only that they were more palatable to the followers and/or more useful to the leaders. Hell is one of these doctrines that we should be especially wary of, given the moral implications of its acceptance. Is the type of God we revere out of great respect and love, or out of unspeakable fear?

Never been asked in a Catholic parish to fear God myself. My fear should be for my immortal soul should I not do what humans were meant to do: love, serve and know the Supreme Good. On the contrary I have heard many alter calls in Baptist and non-demon Churches based on fear. And even if such occured in a Parish, it is still the wrong way to look at our position. It is literally to live in the Light as we were created to, or choose the absence of Light - darkness.

In the end, I think we have to ask ourselves whether the same person who taught us to love our enemies and bless those who curse us would intentionally torture his enemies and those who curse him endlessly and with no hope of redemption. I cannot in all good conscience believe that Jesus would save me, but not my family and friends. Especially when most Christians believe that the fall of man, and sin's entry into the world were permitted by God in the first place.

I will go with CS Lewis on this:
"
“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”

 

[he-man]

Rubbish! The account of Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah in the furnace is recorded in the LXX ca. 250 BC.
The Greek text of what? The book of Daniel was written in Aramaic and Hebrew not Greek.

Huh? The LXX and Theodotion but the Little Book is hard for some to digest and are more concerned with the sweetness, rather than the instruction that follows, which are rejected because they are too predisposed to follow!

And Gill contradicts your previous assertions that story of the three Hebrews surviving the furnace was an apocryphal addition.

That was not GILL that was Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

The Greek text is extant in two recessions. The chief teachings of the Book are the Supremacy of the God of the Jews over all other powers, human or divine. The ultimate purpose is the triumph of God upon the earth and the establishment of a universal and Eternal Kingdom on earth with the coming of the Son of Man; the reward of the faithful in a future resurrection. Dan 12:2.

References: Driver, Prince, Behrmann; Wright; Kennedy; Bevan; Dick; Wilson; Charles; Montgomery; The Book of Daniel, 1931
A Standard Bible Dictionary Page 168-169 Funk and Wagnalls Company; Jacobus; Lane; Zenos; Cook (Oxon)

This is what GILL says:
"[God] is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace; either to prevent their being cast into it, or to preserve them unhurt in it, and to bring them safe out of it: instances of his power in other cases, such as the passage of the Israelites through the Red sea safe, when their enemies were drowned, with others, confirmed their faith in this:" [GILL]