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Timothew,
I refer to your post at #142 and this is a response.
OzSpen, I am no longer able to discuss what the Bible says about hell in this forum. If you wish to talk, we can talk in a different forum. UDD has been suggested as a possibility for discussion about what the Bible says about hell.
That is because the position of annihilation that you are espousing is not within the realm of orthodox doctrine, hence your referral to the Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion.
I am not interested in the unorthodox doctrine of hell (which is better described as Hades and Gehenna).
Oz
John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
So what's the meaning of the Greek word for 'perish'?
The Greek word for perish is ἀπόληται, and it means "perish".
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish (apoletai) but have eternal life.
How is it translated in your Bible?
Here is more information on apoletai, a form of the Greek word apollumi:
The definition says "destroy utterly, kill,"
Greek Word Study Tool
Why did you avoid responding to what I wrote in #146?
It doesn't need a response. You have the definition, and what you posted doesn't show that apoletai doesn't mean perish. I don't know what else to say other than, "you have the definition", which I said.
Regarding fairness, I always thought hell was the most unjust and unfair thing I've ever heard of. It is something I cry out to God about. But I do realize that God is infinitely wiser than I, so for now, until a smarter man than I can explain how it could possibly come close to fairness, I'll get by with mournfully trusting God and thanking Him for rescuing me from that fate.
Why don't you share with us your understanding of the nature of hell (Hades, Gehenna) and why you think it is unfair?
Oz
Tim,
I wrote in #146, 'Apoletai ('perish' in John 3:16) is 3rd person, singular, aorist, subjunctive, middle of apollumi. Arndt & Gingrich's lexicon gives the meaning of the middle voice of apollumi, which it is in Jn 3:16, as 'be destroyed, ruined' and of a person, it means 'perish, die' as in Jn 3:16. Therefore, 'perish' meaning to die and be ruined is a justifiable meaning'.
The fact is that apollumi does not just mean 'perish'. It also means, 'ruined, die'. Your view is not prepared to admit that at death, no believers will die and experience ruin.
However, you have said that the moderators of this forum have told you to discuss this at the Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion because you are promoting an unorthodox view when compared with, say, the Nicene Creed.
Why don't you go there and start a thread on this topic?
I've appreciated dialoguing with you, but we are on different pages of the theological spectrum.
Oz
(Where does the Nicene Creed say that there is ECT, I'm just wondering)
Thanks, I do believe that Jesus Christ will return to judge the quick and the dead. I believe and look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. I dont see anything written in the creed about ECT, which you said that I disagree with in the creed. Whether the life of the world to come applies to both believers and unbelievers is the $64 question, isn't it. I see where the Bible says that believers receive eternal life, but I disagree that the Bible says that unbelievers receive eternal life.Tim,
You need to understand this language in the Nicene Creed: 'to judge the quick and the dead ...I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come'. ECT = being eternal conscious torment.
These are only one-liners of summary of foundational doctrines, doctrines of which are found in scripture. We know from Scripture that there is ' conscious torment' for the ungodly after death (see Luke 16:23) and that it will be eternal (Matt 25:46).
'The life of the world to come' applies to both believers and non-believers. This is supported by Scripture.
Oz
Whether the life of the world to come applies to both believers and unbelievers is the $64 question, isn't it. I see where the Bible says that believers receive eternal life, but I disagree that the Bible says that unbelievers receive eternal life.
I don't disagree with the Nicene Creed or the Bible.
Seems to me, Tim, that you show a blind eye to certain Scriptures to assist you in reaching that conclusion.
There is life after death for both the redeemed and unbelievers, but they are in different places experiencing different effects. That's Bible!
Oz
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Rev 20:14 (KJV)
The "hell" cast into the lake is the same word as the "hades" the rich man was in.
That's Bible, too.
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