is hell eternal or temporary

SeventhValley said:

Just wondering what are you're thoughts on Gregory of Nyssa? He said ", just as the dross is purged from gold by fire. In the same way in the long circuits of time, when the evil of nature which is now mingled and implanted in them has been taken away, whensoever the restoration to their old condition of the things that now lie in wickedness takes place, there will be a unanimous thanksgiving from the whole creation, both of those who have been punished in the purification and of those who have not at all needed purification"

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From what I understand this teaching of St. Gregory of Nyssa was rejected. His sanctity is not affected by this since the issue of universalism was unsettled in his life & I am unsure if he was in speculation with this topic. The purifying by fire seems to refer to 1st Corinthians 3.

Lukaris said:

From what I understand this teaching of St. Gregory of Nyssa was rejected. His sanctity is not affected by this since the issue of universalism was unsettled in his life & I am unsure if he was in speculation with this topic. The purifying by fire seems to refer to 1st Corinthians 3.

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plus, you can begrudgingly give thanks. just because someone is purified and restored (and all will be), that does not mean that they will like it.

Huh? What is the purifying fire then? (in Orthodoxy). It isn't hell, is it? I'm referring to 1 Corinth. 3:15...

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the purifying fire is the fire of the presence of God. both sinners and saints will experience this fire, although for one it will be illumination, and for the other it will be wrath. still the same purifying fire, but some won't want to be purified.

So correct me if I'm wrong- Hell is a manifestation of God's love but to those in hell, they don't want to have anything to do with God, so they see it as torment. Correct?

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correct, although I don't think I would use the word manifestation of God's love, hell is God's love.

ArmyMatt said:

the purifying fire is the fire of the presence of God. both sinners and saints will experience this fire, although for one it will be illumination, and for the other it will be wrath. still the same purifying fire, but some won't want to be purified.

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You seemed to be saying, though, that (as little as they may like it) the damned will be purified. In what sense will they be purified - what does that consist of, what will happen when they are pure?

MilesVitae said:

You seemed to be saying, though, that (as little as they may like it) the damned will be purified. In what sense will they be purified - what does that consist of, what will happen when they are pure?

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in the sense that they will get a resurrected body. everyone will be raised in the end, but for those that set themselves against that resurrected life (ie the desire for sin), the very thing that Christ offers will cause them great torment.

God is too good as to condemn someone who doesn't want to follow Him to an eternity in His presence.

Andres88 said:

God is too good as to condemn someone who doesn't want to follow Him to an eternity in His presence.

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But what is the option? Where us there such a place that God isn't? At least according to the Psalms ...

Andres88 said:

God is too good as to condemn someone who doesn't want to follow Him to an eternity in His presence.

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He does not condemn them, their vain attempt to flee His presence is the condemnation. they condemn themselves

SeventhValley said:

I just wonder about how the scriptures say you can be saved through fire by being turned over to Satan seems to imply a temporary stay in a eternal fire.

Also if Hitler got 1,000 years in hell for each victim of the holocaust that would be roughly 11 Billion years. So eternity makes even him look like he is getting a undeserved punishment. Makes God look like a monster
I thought the EO allowed belief in ultimate reconciliation? Maybe I am thinking of the wrong church. If so sorry for disturbing you.

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Hell is eternal, but people don't go straight to hell when they die, that's only after the Final Judgement. For this reason, we pray for all the reposed.

The verse your referring to about being handed over to Satan is anathematising someone, casting someone out of the Church until he repents; the world is Satan's.

By what authority do we judge that you would get 1000 years in hell for each murder? This is not the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Reconciliation to God, Theosis, is a process - hell is the solidification of ones rejection of God, so until the Final Judgement, we can pray for the salvation of anyone that has fallen asleep, and God willing they'll be joined to the Church before the Final Judgement.

I still struggle with this area of Orthodoxy. I don't understand why our ability to repent would go away after we die. If God is truly merciful it seems he would leave the door to repentance open just as he does in this life. What am I missing? Why isn't repentance possible after death? Why pray for the deceased?

Met Hilarion Alfeyev:

Is it at all possible that the fate of a person can be changed after his death? Is death that border beyond which some unchangeable static existence comes? Does the development of the human person not stop after death? It is impossible for one to actively repent in hell; it is impossible to rectify the evil deeds one committed by appropriate good works. It may, however, be possible for one to repent through a “change of heart,” a review of one’s values. One of the testimonies to this is the rich man of the Gospel. He realized the gravity of his situation as soon as [he] found himself in hell. Indeed, in his lifetime he was focused on earthly pursuits and forgot God, but once in hell he realized that God was his only hope for salvation. Besides, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, the fate of a person after death can be changed through the prayer of the church. Thus existence after death has its own dynamics. On the basis of what has been said above, it may be said that after death the development of the human person does not cease, for existence after death is not a transfer from a dynamic into a static being, but rather a continuation on a new level of that road which a person followed in his or her lifetime. (Christ the Conqueror of Hell, pp. 216-217)

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Do you see any indication from Scripture or Holy Tradition that the damned repent and are saved?

Columba7 said:

I still struggle with this area of Orthodoxy. I don't understand why our ability to repent would go away after we die. If God is truly merciful it seems he would leave the door to repentance open just as he does in this life. What am I missing? Why isn't repentance possible after death? Why pray for the deceased?

Met Hilarion Alfeyev:

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Columba7 said:

I still struggle with this area of Orthodoxy. I don't understand why our ability to repent would go away after we die. If God is truly merciful it seems he would leave the door to repentance open just as he does in this life. What am I missing? Why isn't repentance possible after death? Why pray for the deceased?

Met Hilarion Alfeyev:

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It is all for the sake of personal and interpersonal transformance that we believe and do these things. When seen in this light, we can then understand the value of the Orthodox beliefs and practices.

For instance, when we pray, mindfully and soulfully, whose mind and spirit is it that is being changed, Gods? or ours? If we pray for others, are we not attending to others and thinking about them? Will this not alter our habitual tendency to always think about ourselves and our own desires over and above the needs of others? Will the development of the habit of praying for others not indeed transform us inside?

If we are too quick to reject Traditional beliefs and practices, it may be, to those of us who are people of faith in God, to our own spiritual detriment. Look beyond the belief itself, and to its effects upon spiritual growth, and then you may realize that the idea that you will be seriously held accountable for your spiritual growth, or lack thereof, has great value, so that you'll take it seriously enough for it to really make a difference when it truly counts: which is right now, while you're still in the flesh.

Our entire lives here on Earth we do one of two things: cultivate the spiritual life with Christ, or cultivate the ego and self-adoration. Now we can never cultivate the spiritual life perfectly, but with the help of the Sacrament of the Eucharist, the Sacrament of Confession, the prayers of our spiritual father and friends, the intercession of the saints, going to Divine Liturgy, helping those who are needy and less fortunate than we are, exercising humiliation and selflessness, we eventually, God-willing, find heaven.

But if we are in hell, we are now deprived of the sacramental life completely. We are no longer on Earth to help the needy or the struggling or give succor and strength and help to friends and the suffering. We can no longer confess our sins before the icon of Christ with our priest, we can no longer taste the Bread of Heaven, we no longer have the path before us. All is lost. We exist in a state of ego where we have cultivated a garden. That garden is selfishness and inwardness. When we encounter God's uncreated light, it burns and gives us the desire to withdraw. There is no second chance to get this right. And Scripture and the Fathers make it sound like this life is it for us. Let's make it count while we can with God's help!

Protomartyr Alban said:

Hell is eternal, but people don't go straight to hell when they die, that's only after the Final Judgement. For this reason, we pray for all the reposed.

The verse your referring to about being handed over to Satan is anathematising someone, casting someone out of the Church until he repents; the world is Satan's.

By what authority do we judge that you would get 1000 years in hell for each murder? This is not the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Reconciliation to God, Theosis, is a process - hell is the solidification of ones rejection of God, so until the Final Judgement, we can pray for the salvation of anyone that has fallen asleep, and God willing they'll be joined to the Church before the Final Judgement.

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Let's say God gave Hitler time in hell of 10x the life of each person he was responsible for killing. This would be be more than just and would still be far less than eternity. Now if God purifies us then time in punishment would be limited. So either we are all eventually purified through the fire and keep our lives according to the scriptures or we are punished eternally which makes God the same as the Calvinists which I am trying to escape.

We believe that as Orthodox Christians we work out our salvation with fear & trembling (Philipians 2:12) and those outside the church will be judged according to their conduct (Romans 2:11-16). No one is automatically saved or damned as a limited, human, intellectual approach to a strictly juridical concept of God concludes. We understand human will acting in accordance (or not) to the will of God as the lesser aspect in his will and to how He wills & cannot second guess His sovereignty (Romans 9:14-18). Regrettably, hell is eternal (as far as we know).

Still we need to also realize that with God all is possible (Matthew 19:26), pray for all (1st Timothy 2:1) with love, faith, & hope (1st Corinthians 13:13). Yes, this includes for the departed for although we do not fully know why we can also know that God has "not left off His kindness to the living and to the dead" (Ruth 2:20, yes, the book of Ruth).

St. Gregory Palamas, one of our greatest saints points out an expansiveness to the judgement of God but no denial of the eternality of hell:


St. Gregory Palamas (15th c.) preached, "When Paul writes to the Philipians he expresses the aim of this renewal more clearly, saying, "We look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall change our vile body, that it may e fashioned like unto His glorious body" (Phil. 3:20-21). As Christ died in bodily weakness & dishonor & rose in power & divine glory, so those that live like Christ are sown through death, to quote Paul again, in weakness & dishonor, & are raised in power & glory (cf. 1 Cor. 15:43). They receive a glorified, incorruptible body like Christ's after the resurrection when He became the firstborn from the dead (Colossians 1:18) & the first fruits of them that sleep (cf. 1 Cor. 15:20). This bodily resurrection is now seen through faith & hope rather than with our eyes, not being reality yet. The soul's renewal, on the other hand, begins, as we have said, with holy baptism with the remission of sins & is nourished & grows through righteousness in faith. The soul is continually renewed in the knowledge of God & the virtues associated with this knowledge, & will reach perfection in the future contemplation of God face to face. Now, however, it sees through a glass darkly (cf. 1 Cor. 13:12)."

St. Gregory later preaches upon the general resurrection that there will be those the Lord determines as righteous among the non believers (apparently because they were in ignorance through no fault of their own):

"The dead bodies of the ungodly will also be resurrected, but not in heavenly glory, for they will not be fashioned in the likeness of the glorious body of Christ, nor will they see the vision of God promised to believers, which is called the kingdom of God. "Let thee wicked be taken away, that he behold not the glory of the Lord," as the scripture says (Isaiah 26:10, LXX). But those born & nurtured according to Christ, who, as far as they were able, attained to the measure of the fullness of Christ (Eph. 4:13), will also obtain the blessing of divine radiance..."

Quotes from the section St. Gregory Palamas' homily "On Redemption" from "The Saving Work of Christ" edited by Christopher Veniamin, Mt Thabor Publishing, isbn # 978-0-9774983-5-2 pages 98 & 99. (2008).

Just a heads up that there is a thread in Exploring Christianity asking for EO info on hell: http://www.christianforums.com/t7833792/

SeventhValley said:

Let's say God gave Hitler time in hell of 10x the life of each person he was responsible for killing. This would be be more than just and would still be far less than eternity. Now if God purifies us then time in punishment would be limited. So either we are all eventually purified through the fire and keep our lives according to the scriptures or we are punished eternally which makes God the same as the Calvinists which I am trying to escape.

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I think you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. God isn't punishing anyone. People make the choice in their lives to love God and follow Him or they reject Him (which is another subject that is more detailed than just that one comment). When we depart this earth, we are in His presence because He is everywhere and in all things, so therefore, one cannot escape the feeling of His Love and Light, which, as others have said, feels different depending on one's heart's disposition of God.

Columba7 said:

I still struggle with this area of Orthodoxy. I don't understand why our ability to repent would go away after we die. If God is truly merciful it seems he would leave the door to repentance open just as he does in this life. What am I missing? Why isn't repentance possible after death? Why pray for the deceased?

Met Hilarion Alfeyev:

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well, of course God keeps the door open. God closes no one out. those in hell are the ones who never want to repent ever. so if anyone is in hell, it is because they chose to remain there.

SeventhValley said:

Let's say God gave Hitler time in hell of 10x the life of each person he was responsible for killing. This would be be more than just and would still be far less than eternity. Now if God purifies us then time in punishment would be limited. So either we are all eventually purified through the fire and keep our lives according to the scriptures or we are punished eternally which makes God the same as the Calvinists which I am trying to escape.

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no it doesn't. you are factoring out the possibility that people may never want the mercy that God offers. so God does not keep them in hell, it is their will that is set against Him, and not the other way around.

we often think that the sinners in hell realize how bad it sucks, and they want out, and God says no. when in fact, it is God who asks if they have had enough, and they are the ones who say no.