Is Heaven heaven if anyone's missing?

Hmm · Oct 8, 2022

Der Alte said:
I am doing nothing different than they are.

"See Watson, he admits it!"

P1LGR1M · Oct 8, 2022

Hmm said:
Of course it is. You need to realise that the word "fear" is more accurately translated as "awe" in the verses you have quoted.

P1LGR1M said:
Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

So you feel the Lord is calling people to have awe of God here?

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Oct 8, 2022

Hmm said:
"See Watson, he admits it!"

What ineffable twaddle...

God bless.

TedT · Oct 8, 2022

Hmm said:
Some are not accounted for so, while we're naturally glad we survived, we are also affected by sadness.

Heaven is a state of unity with GOD. Idolatry is putting any other person above this unity.

No one enters the heavenly state of oneness with GOD in holy righteous love who still holds onto any feeling of idolatry of others over the necessity of their banishment from the heavenly reality.

Your building fire is not a proper analogy to the fire of hell which is not an accident against innocents but a final judgement against criminals so hardened, so leavened by sin, they are correctly called demons...no one else is damned, ImCo.

Berserk · Oct 8, 2022

The OP's point illustrates why the gates of the heavenly Jerusalem just "outside" the "lake of fire" are eternally (open *Rev, 21:25; cp. 22:15; 21:8)." The implied traffic coming and going through "the gates" implies soul retrievals from Hell motivated by the compassion of the retrievers for whom Heaven can't be Heaven as long as they are aware of loved ones languishing in torment "outside."
2 early Christian apocalypses confirm this understanding of the longing of the righteous in Heaven for the salvation of their damned loved ones trapped in Hell (Apocalypse of Peter 14 [c. 125 AD]' Chrisitan Sibylline Oracles II: 331-335). Newly arrived believers persuade God to authorize the promotion of their loved ones in Hell to join them in Heaven.

"And to the pious (in Heaven), when they ask eternal God, HE WILL GRANT THEM TO SAVE PEOPLE OUT OF THE DEVOURING FIRE AND EVERLASTING TORMENTS. This also will He do. For having gathered them from the unwearying flame and set them elsewhere, HE WILL SEND THEM FOR HIS PEOPLE'S SAKE into another life, an eternal one with the immortals (Sibylline Oracles II:331-335)."

"Then I shall grant to them [the eternally damned in Hell) God, if they shall call to me in the torment (Apocalypse of Peter 14 [Rainer fragment]."

See my thread on "The Issue of Universalism" for more on the case for universalism in Revelation.

Hmm · Oct 8, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
So you feel the Lord is calling people to have awe of God here?

Yes. The words "fear" and "hell" are problematical translations. We've already spoken a bit about fear but you need to realise that "Hell" is a very simplified translation of at least four words in the original documents: Hades, Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna, all of which have different meanings and none of which mean what you think Hell means.

P1LGR1M said:
What ineffable twaddle...

Sorry, I'll try to write more effable twaddle in future.

RileyG · Oct 8, 2022

public hermit said:
Define those who hate God, please.

They do not want to have anything to do with God and reject his love.

public hermit · Oct 8, 2022

RileyG said:
They do not want to have anything to do with God and reject his love.

Thanks. How many people who have experienced God's love in any meaningful way do you think make a conscious choice to reject God's love and don't want anything to do with it? I'm thinking that number must be very low. I bet there are many who simply have yet to experience God -God's love being inseparable from God- but not many know God and reject God. If they reject God and God's love, they did not know God.

Part of the issue is that God is hidden in this world, to a significant degree. In this world, God is revealed, which entails that God is hidden. We can spend a lifetime without seeking God and feel justified in doing so. We can seek and come up with questions and doubts because God is hidden. All of that is possible now. But that is impossible once we are confronted with God's presence in a way that we cannot escape. That presence is Love. Being confronted with the unmitigated presence might cause suffering- realizing what I had been and what I sought in life was an illusion- but one will not be able to deny the goodness and love of God. Ultimately, one can only reject what is truly good and desirable if one is mistaken about it, but there can be no mistaking divine love and goodness when everything else is gone except God and the good God has created.

P1LGR1M · Oct 8, 2022

Hmm said:
Yes.

Sure it is, lol. So how come I never see you teaching people to be in awe of Hell?

Hmm said:
The words "fear" and "hell" are problematical translations.

I can't see how it can be problematic when the contexts clear it up for us. Gehenna is a place one should have fear of ending up in, not something someone sits around and has reverent awe for. Or even awe, for that matter.

Your argument simply isn't reaonable. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Hmm said:
We've already spoken a bit about fear but you need to realise that "Hell" is a very simplified translation of at least four words in the original documents: Hades, Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna, all of which have different meanings and none of which mean what you think Hell means.

Seriously? After all the threads I have been involved in dealing with this issue you are going to suggest that I am unaware of the differing words translated Hell?

Hmm said:
Sorry, I'll try to write more effable twaddle in future.

That's a good chap.

God bless.

Der Alte · Oct 8, 2022

Hmm said:
Yes. The words "fear" and "hell" are problematical translations. We've already spoken a bit about fear but you need to realise that "Hell" is a very simplified translation of at least four words in the original documents: Hades, Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna, all of which have different meanings and none of which mean what you think Hell means.
Sorry, I'll try to write more effable twaddle in future.

Is your opinion on what Sheol, hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna means, effable twaddle or ineffable twaddle?
At the risk of being accused of spamming once again.
My ¢¢ Below are quotes from three Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante ever scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell."
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged "bias of modern Christian translators." DA
…..This post refutes the false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning. It never happened.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3] Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world,[sheol]" which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

sawdust · Oct 8, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
One of the scariest pictures I see in Scripture is God giving men over to their "free will:"

I think it should be noted that "free will" in this age is limited to choice. It's why we have this age with God allowing evil to manifest here on Earth. The Lord is sifting the wheat from the chaff so that in the eternal state man can exercise his will without restraint for it will always be in line with the Lord's will.

No creature can truly be said to be absolutely free in the same way God is free. We will always be limited to the extent of our "creatureness".

Saint Steven · Oct 8, 2022

Hmm said:
As I say, there's no point in doing so because UR has been explained to you many times and you merely respond with the same copypasta.

copypasta?

Spaghetti, Spaghetti, Spaghetti, Spaghetti, Spaghetti, Spaghetti...

Linguini, Linguini, Linguini, Linguini, Linguini, Linguini, Linguini, Linguini...

Macaroni, Macaroni, Macaroni, Macaroni, Macaroni, Macaroni...

In this case...
Cheesy Macaroni, Cheesy Macaroni, Cheesy Macaroni...

RileyG · Oct 8, 2022

public hermit said:
Thanks. How many people who have experienced God's love in any meaningful way do you think make a conscious choice to reject God's love and don't want anything to do with it? I'm thinking that number must be very low. I bet there are many who simply have yet to experience God -God's love being inseparable from God- but not many know God and reject God. If they reject God and God's love, they did not know God.

Part of the issue is that God is hidden in this world, to a significant degree. In this world, God is revealed, which entails that God is hidden. We can spend a lifetime without seeking God and feel justified in doing so. We can seek and come up with questions and doubts because God is hidden. All of that is possible now. But that is impossible once we are confronted with God's presence in a way that we cannot escape. That presence is Love. Being confronted with the unmitigated presence might cause suffering- realizing what I had been and what I sought in life was an illusion- but one will not be able to deny the goodness and love of God. Ultimately, one can only reject what is truly good and desirable if one is mistaken about it, but there can be no mistaking divine love and goodness when everything else is gone except God and the good God has created.

Yes. I can understand where you are coming from, even if I do not agree.

Ultimately, I think there is a lot about God that is shrouded in mystery. Therefore, I hope (as a non-Universalist) the number of damned is relatively low. None of this has been revealed to me, so I have no way of knowing.

Thanks for your reply. It's appreciated.

Joy · Oct 9, 2022

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Is Heaven heaven if anyone's missing?

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