Is he committing adultery with his own wife?

[4Bear]

Well, I know for a fact that lust can defile the marriage bed and I think you have both admitted that.

It happens when other parties/images are between the ears of either partner and I think it's common in this age of internet porn.

So, when someone says their husband has lust, I hope you can be sensitive to the concept that they live in their marriage and they just might know better than you what is going on. I think the discernment of wives should be respected.

 

[4Bear]

I think its just outrageous thats why I am going so hard against the statement and it's stating something the bible doesn't state. Truthfully it gets old call it what it is dishonoring, selfish ect but it isn't lusting unless it produces adultery in a marriage. I personally just don't like when people use words inappropriately and I think links and me did a good job stating that these things were all sins but the only way to lust is to want something unnatural.

So, let's imagine your wife is carrying on an emotional affair and her genitals have never ever connected with his. She has not engaged in physical adultery with him at all.

Her sex drive upticks significantly, she gets really hot for you and you have frequent hot passionate sex and the whole time she is imagining the other man...
She sees his face, thinks of his loving words, imagines his p**** entering her...
and she just can't get enough, oh she wants you/him.......

Are you denying this is lust? Are you saying this would be fine marital sex because her genitals connected with yours in normal intercourse (nothing kinky)? ie it was not "something unnatural" which is "the only way to lust" according to your above statement?

I say, it's lust and defiles the marriage bed and is not unlike the pattern of men impacted by porn.

 

[Avniel]

Well, I know for a fact that lust can defile the marriage bed and I think you have both admitted that.

It happens when other parties/images are between the ears of either partner and I think it's common in this age of internet porn.

So, when someone says their husband has lust, I hope you can be sensitive to the concept that they live in their marriage and they just might know better than you what is going on. I think the discernment of wives should be respected.

That is two different things. You, Link and I are all saying the same thing.

I would respect the discernment of wives if they were saying "he is lusting to add sodomy" or "he is lusting he watches porn....."


Not "when I'm tired and he wants have sex and is annoying me about it he is lusting after me, his wife" that statement doesn't make sense. It is just teaching more sexual hang ups in the church. Is it sinful to annoy a spouse to get them to have sex, I believe it is but if its your wife it's not lust.

Like links said if my wife and I were on vacation and the beach the air whatever got us both in the mood to be passionate in our desire for each other and in a most physical way....that's not lust.

 

[Avniel]

So, let's imagine your wife is carrying on an emotional affair and her genitals have never ever connected with his. She has not engaged in physical adultery with him at all.

Her sex drive upticks significantly, she gets really hot for you and you have frequent hot passionate sex and the whole time she is imagining the other man...
She sees his face, thinks of his loving words, imagines his p**** entering her...
and she just can't get enough, oh she wants you/him.......

Are you denying this is lust? Are you saying this would be fine marital sex because her genitals connected with yours in normal intercourse (nothing kinky)? ie it was not "something unnatural" which is "the only way to lust" according to your above statement?

I say, it's lust and defiles the marriage bed and is not unlike the pattern of men impacted by porn.

Lets not use my wife in the example especially with it being so graphic it makes me uncomfortable.


That is her lusting after someone else that's not a wife lusting after her husband. Her husband is her's if she was having sex and thinking of her husband is she lusting?

 

[4Bear]

Lets not use my wife in the example especially with it being so graphic it makes me uncomfortable.


That is her lusting after someone else that's not a wife lusting after her husband. Her husband is her's if she was having sex and thinking of her husband is she lusting?

Ok, someone else's wife then. I'll even be the patsy. If this is going on in MY head while I'm having "natural" genital intercourse with my husband,

it brings lust into the marriage bed, doesn't it?

The marriage bed would be defiled by the lust going on between my ears. Agree?

 

[4Bear]

Appreciate the Jewish view of sex :

The primary purpose of sex is to reinforce the loving marital bond between husband and wife... Sex should only be experienced in a time of joy. Sex for selfish personal satisfaction, without regard for the partner's pleasure, is wrong and evil. A man may never force his wife to have sex. A couple may not have sexual relations while drunk or quarreling. Sex may never be used as a weapon against a spouse, either by depriving the spouse of sex or by compelling it. It is a serious offense to use sex (or lack thereof) to punish or manipulate a spouse.

Sex is the woman's right, not the man's. A man has a duty to give his wife sex regularly and to ensure that sex is pleasurable for her. He is also obligated to watch for signs that his wife wants sex, and to offer it to her without her asking for it. The woman's right to sexual intercourse is referred to as onah, and it is one of a wife's three basic rights (the others are food and clothing), which a husband may not reduce. The Talmud specifies both the quantity and quality of sex that a man must give his wife. It specifies the frequency of sexual obligation based on the husband's occupation, although this obligation can be modified in the ketubah (marriage contract). A man may not take a vow to abstain from sex for an extended period of time, and may not take a journey for an extended period of time, because that would deprive his wife of sexual relations. In addition, a husband's consistent refusal to engage in sexual relations is grounds for compelling a man to divorce his wife, even if the couple has already fulfilled the halakhic obligation to procreate.

Although sex is the woman's right, she does not have absolute discretion to withhold it from her husband. A woman may not withhold sex from her husband as a form of punishment, and if she does, the husband may divorce her without paying the substantial divorce settlement provided for in the ketubah. Judaism 101: Kosher Sex​

 

[Verve]

Back the truck up there...

Sex should only be experienced in a time of joy?

So you're saying that times when a spouse or both are in emotional pain and seeking to comfort one another it is inappropriate?

One of the beautiful things about marital intercourse is that it physically cements the emotional/spiritual bond of a couple.

Many couples have been documented about marital intercourse and grief/stress.

The Jewish perspective that you are putting up does not line up well with 1st Corinthians 7.

Are you seeking to be a judaizer in the bedroom? Next thing you'll be telling me that a man must be physically circumcised to have proper relations with his wife.

 

[Avniel]

Ok, someone else's wife then. I'll even be the patsy. If this is going on in MY head while I'm having "natural" genital intercourse with my husband,

it brings lust into the marriage bed, doesn't it?

The marriage bed would be defiled by the lust going on between my ears. Agree?

Yes but you and MK are saying two different things.There is a difference between lusting which causes defiling of the marriage bed by bring outside stimuli and lusting after your spouse. There are several ways a individual can lust after something or someone, bring those's lusts in the marriage bed is lusting after a person or a thing not your spouse.

The only way to lust after your spouse is by having unnatural desires geared towards your spouse. That isn't me saying that it is the only way a person can lust/commit adultery ect, that's not what I am saying. There are several ways a person can defile the marriage bed. But to lust after your spouse the only way is by having unnatural desires.

 

[Avniel]

Appreciate the Jewish view of sex :

The primary purpose of sex is to reinforce the loving marital bond between husband and wife... Sex should only be experienced in a time of joy. Sex for selfish personal satisfaction, without regard for the partner's pleasure, is wrong and evil. A man may never force his wife to have sex. A couple may not have sexual relations while drunk or quarreling. Sex may never be used as a weapon against a spouse, either by depriving the spouse of sex or by compelling it. It is a serious offense to use sex (or lack thereof) to punish or manipulate a spouse.

Sex is the woman's right, not the man's. A man has a duty to give his wife sex regularly and to ensure that sex is pleasurable for her. He is also obligated to watch for signs that his wife wants sex, and to offer it to her without her asking for it. The woman's right to sexual intercourse is referred to as onah, and it is one of a wife's three basic rights (the others are food and clothing), which a husband may not reduce. The Talmud specifies both the quantity and quality of sex that a man must give his wife. It specifies the frequency of sexual obligation based on the husband's occupation, although this obligation can be modified in the ketubah (marriage contract). A man may not take a vow to abstain from sex for an extended period of time, and may not take a journey for an extended period of time, because that would deprive his wife of sexual relations. In addition, a husband's consistent refusal to engage in sexual relations is grounds for compelling a man to divorce his wife, even if the couple has already fulfilled the halakhic obligation to procreate.

Although sex is the woman's right, she does not have absolute discretion to withhold it from her husband. A woman may not withhold sex from her husband as a form of punishment, and if she does, the husband may divorce her without paying the substantial divorce settlement provided for in the ketubah. Judaism 101: Kosher Sex​

Still not lust between two spouses and not scripture

 

[4Bear]

Still not lust between two spouses and not scripture

Link with his orientation toward OT practices (no sex during menstruation, etc) might find the Jewish view food for thought. The "sex as a woman's right not a man's" is intriguing, though I support equal rights.

 

[Avniel]

Link with his orientation toward OT practices (no sex during menstruation, etc) might find the Jewish view food for thought. The "sex as a woman's right not a man's" is intriguing, though I support equal rights.

Do you agree that unless unnatural desires spouses can not lust after each other only outside stimuli.

 

[Verve]

The only way to lust after your spouse is by having unnatural desires geared towards your spouse. That isn't me saying that it is the only way a person can lust/commit adultery ect, that's not what I am saying. There are several ways a person can defile the marriage bed. But to lust after your spouse the only way is by having unnatural desires.

Here are my thoughts on the unnatural desires aspect.

A friend of mine went through extensive therapy because she was raised with extremist views on submission without the accountability end pushed for the husband. That she should submit to her husband no matter what.

Her now ex-husband was given to unnatural desires. Kinky sexual fetishes that involved watching her with another man or woman and "sharing" her.
He regularly took her out and bought her lingerie and brought her to amateur night at the local strip club where girls were encouraged to dance for tips. Then they'd get cleaned up and go to church on sunday morning with their children. Totally white picket fence, stepford wives type community.

I would still say that his lust wasn't for her, but for the rush of the illicit sexual acts. He wasn't committing adultery by having sexual relations with his wife in natural ways, but by lusting for unnatural things in their marriage bed.

 

[mkgal1]

That is her lusting after someone else that's not a wife lusting after her husband. Her husband is her's if she was having sex and thinking of her husband is she lusting?

I think the point was.....the sin of lust is defiling that marriage bed----even with sex between spouses. It's impure---not the way God intended. Sin taints purity. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. (Galatians 5:9)

One of the problems with the way you're seeming to define "lust" is (IMO).....you seem to have it wrapped up and twisted together with adultery. "Lust"...IMO.....is best defined as "evil desires" (a general definition). When our focus is inverted (towards ourselves) instead of towards receiving God's love (which allows us to love others).......we are at risk of igniting that lust.

 

[4Bear]

Do you agree that unless unnatural desires spouses can not lust after each other only outside stimuli.

I'm going to go back and agree with the person who said it is a spirit of the law versus letter of the law issue. I don't think its so black and white. Marital sex is not just the body parts connecting. It is a spiritual, emotional connection and the purity, or lack thereof, depends on what is going on between the ears/in the hearts of the participants.

And I think women tend to have more sensitive "impurity detectors" and that men should be taught to respect their women in the bedroom and out.

 

[Verve]

And I think women tend to have more sensitive "impurity detectors" and that men should be taught to respect their women in the bedroom and out.

What?

I agree about mutual respect but I don't get this whole "impurity detectors" thing...

 

[Avniel]

I think the point was.....the sin of lust is defiling that marriage bed----even with sex between spouses. It's impure---not the way God intended. Sin taints purity. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. (Galatians 5:9)

One of the problems with the way you're seeming to define "lust" is (IMO).....you seem to have it wrapped up and twisted together with adultery. "Lust"...IMO.....is best defined as "evil desires" (a general definition). When our focus is inverted (towards ourselves) instead of towards receiving God's love (which allows us to love others).......we are at risk of igniting that lust.

Lust can defile the marriage bed however you can not lust after something that is your own. How can I lust after my own body if two become one, if my body is her's and her body is mine how can I lust after my own body? It's irrational and the theory has to many gaps God isn't the author of confusion.

 

[Avniel]

I'm going to go back and agree with the person who said it is a spirit of the law versus letter of the law issue. I don't think its so black and white. Marital sex is not just the body parts connecting. It is a spiritual, emotional connection and the purity, or lack thereof, depends on what is going on between the ears/in the hearts of the participants.

And I think women tend to have more sensitive "impurity detectors" and that men should be taught to respect their women in the bedroom and out.

It's not the spirit of the law versus the letter of the law the fact is it is total unbiblical. Is coercion to have sex wrong, yes but if your married the desire to have sex with your spouse is not lust....God designed sex for marriage. I am surprised more posters don't see how flawed this theology is.

WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

On that note im done

 

[4Bear]

What?

I agree about mutual respect but I don't get this whole "impurity detectors" thing...

Based on Titus 2 and 1 Peter 3- wife is gatekeeper of "chastity" in the marriage husband needs to respect her discernment/reservations regarding sexual activities.

 

[Verve]

I do not see how you are extrapolating gatekeeper of chastity out of those portions of scripture. I understand that those are instructions for Christian living written for women but you also need to balance those out with what is asked of men.

1 Peter 3 is instructing women with husbands who aren't believers to win their husbands to Him through their actions.

Men have a similar requirement in Ephesians 5.

Titus 2 has different roles, however I do not see one gender as being more of a gatekeeper of chastity than another...

 

[4Bear]

It's not the spirit of the law versus the letter of the law the fact is it is total unbiblical. Is coercion to have sex wrong, yes but if your married the desire to have sex with your spouse is not lust....God designed sex for marriage. I am surprised more posters don't see how flawed this theology is.

WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

On that note im done

You sound so frustrated

Your healthy male libido is not wrong or sinful. It's a gift. But so are the opportunities to lay down your life for your wife when she is sick or tired.

Hope that helps!