Is he committing adultery with his own wife?

Avniel · Dec 7, 2012

LinkH said:
It's pretty obvious that the Pentateuch and the New Testament treat husbands and wives a bit differently in the obligations and commandments given to them. Why should that raise a red flag? If you disagree with what I said, show me from scripture what your areas are for concern and I will consider them.

With Mk even quoting husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church even she agrees with this.

mkgal1 · Dec 7, 2012

Avniel said:
Because other then sodomy and porn things like that the marriage bed can not be defiled. You defile your marriage bed by entering into sexual desires that are unnatural. You have no scripture supporting what your saying, it is just your personal theology. I admit the issues you are bringing up are sins but they are not lust.

Oh okay.....

I'm of the opinion that God makes the "rules" on that (just how the marriage bed is defiled).......and that's the opinion that matters to me about my theology (which isn't my exclusive theology, BTW).

My question, though, was on this statement you made, "But saying that it is lust can affect new Christians that are newly wed in a negative manner." And I was asking how calling forced sex ---"lust"----is going to affect new Christians in a negative manner?

LinkH · Dec 7, 2012

mkgal1 said:
Oh okay.....

I'm of the opinion that God makes the "rules" on that (just how the marriage bed is defiled).......and that's the opinion that matters to me about my theology (which isn't my exclusive theology, BTW).

Where does God reveal the rules that say desiring one's spouse is lust when one's love to one's partner isn't perfect or genuine enough?

My question, though, was on this statement you made, "But saying that it is lust can affect new Christians that are newly wed in a negative manner." And I was asking how calling forced sex ---"lust"----is going to affect new Christians in a negative manner?

I'd think of that more in terms of having a lust for violence. The desire to have sex with one's spouse isn't an evil desire. The desire to be violent and harmful to one's spouse is.

4Bear · Dec 7, 2012

LinkH said:
It's pretty obvious that the Pentateuch and the New Testament treat husbands and wives a bit differently in the obligations and commandments given to them. Why should that raise a red flag? If you disagree with what I said, show me from scripture what your areas are for concern and I will consider them.

Raises a red flag when you spend paragraphs on biblical justifications for a male right to sexual license (so long as it doesn't involve a "married" woman) and believe that your wife has no right, and would be unbiblical and a grave sinner to dump your cheating behind.

It colors how I read your posts.
And I can't help but wonder if you are shouting down your conscience?

Avniel, OTH, has clearly and repeatedly stated that outside stimuli in the marriage bed is lust/adultery and is wrong.

Avniel · Dec 7, 2012

mkgal1 said:
Oh okay.....

I'm of the opinion that God makes the "rules" on that (just how the marriage bed is defiled).......and that's the opinion that matters to me about my theology (which isn't my exclusive theology, BTW).

I am of the opinion that God made the rules and the rules He made are in His word, not mine, your's or anyone else's.

My question, though, was on this statement you made, "But saying that it is lust can affect new Christians that are newly wed in a negative manner." And I was asking how calling forced sex ---"lust"----is going to affect new Christians in a negative manner?

Forced sex is an action lust is a thought. Similar hatred is a thought murder is a an action.

LinkH · Dec 7, 2012

4Bear said:
Raises a red flag when you spend paragraphs on biblical justifications for a male right to sexual license (so long as it doesn't involve a "married" woman) and believe that your wife has no right, and would be unbiblical and a grave sinner to dump your cheating behind.

It colors how I read your posts.
And I can't help but wonder if you are shouting down your conscience?

I haven't ever had sex with anyone but my own wife, either before or after marriage. That's part of our testimony.

You've got your own set of experiences, but you really have to be careful not to judge your brother based on your own set of experience. There are some things that God did not reveal clearly about sexuality until Christ came along and spoke those things in Matthew 19. He was working with a bunch of polygamists in the time of the patriarchs, though he clearly forbade female adultery by the time of Moses. It's there in the Old Testament for anyone to see, and I was just commenting on it. I don't know exactly why or what to make of all that, and it is a 'theological difficulty'.

I'm also probably the most anti-divorce person on this forum when it comes to either gender. I lean towards reconciliation, if possible, even after adultery, because that is how God treated Israel. I'm inclined to wrestle with the specific issues in scripture rather than gloss over them or ignore them.

Also, you need to keep in mind that slander isn't pleasing to God. I actually like and agree with a lot of what you write. I think it is good to have women on the forum who hold to some Biblical standards on these things.

If you were hurt by someone who brought up the fact that God tolerated polygamy and gave wives into David's hands, and I mention that, that doesn't mean I act the same way as the person who hurt you. Those statements are there in the Bible. They are difficult, but they are there.

Avniel, OTH, has clearly and repeatedly stated that outside stimuli in the marriage bed is lust/adultery and is wrong.

Hmmm. I just wrote a post eariler in the thread in response to you that about someone is lusting after porn in the marriage bed committing adultery in his heart with the woman he's lusting after, not with his wife. I am against pornography (or looking with lust.)

4Bear · Dec 7, 2012

LinkH said:
Hmmm. I just wrote a post eariler in the thread in response to you that about someone is lusting after porn in the marriage bed committing adultery in his heart with the woman he's lusting after, not with his wife. I am against pornography (or looking with lust.)

So, he's not committing adultery with his wife. But he is committing adultery with the porn image.

Do you think such sex is fine because his body parts are connecting with his wife's? Can you see that this defiles the marriage bed? that this sex "falls short"?

sin= miss the mark, fall short

I asked a similar question earlier which you didn't answer. When you don't answer, I assume you don't agree. ie I assume you give ANY marital sex a Hebrews 13:4 stamp of approval. Doesn't matter what fantasies are going on between the ears

LinkH · Dec 7, 2012

4Bear said:
So, he's not committing adultery with his wife. But he is committing adultery with the porn image.

Do you think such sex is fine because his body parts are connecting with his wife's? Can you see that this defiles the marriage bed? that this sex "falls short"?

sin= miss the mark, fall short

I asked a similar question earlier which you didn't answer. When you don't answer, I assume you don't agree. ie I assume you give ANY marital sex a Hebrews 13:4 stamp of approval. Doesn't matter what fantasies are going on between the ears

I don't recall your question. There are other possibilities. Maybe I didn't read it. Maybe I did and got distracted by 'real life' and forgot about it, or any number of possibilities. It's not wise to assume bad things about people just because they don't respond to your posts.

I realize Hebrews 13:4 could be translated 'let marriage be pure and the bed undefiled'. I haven't really made up my mind which of the two translations makes more sense. I also keep in mind the actual Greek speaking audience didn't have to 'choose' between translations. They could read both senses from the text.

The KJV says,
4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Just right now, I looked up 'de' the word translated 'but' in this passage. I know Hebrew wa can mean but or and. I suspected Greek was a bit more definitive. I also realize I am a layman looking stuff up in Greek dictionaries, and that the Strong's definition is rather limited and Vine's doesn't go into all that much detail for most words.

Vine's says,

2 Strong's Number: g1161 Greek: de

Even (Adverb, Etc.), Even As, Even So:
usually signifying "but," is sometimes used for emphasis, signifying "even," e.g., Rom 3:22; 9:30, "even the righteousness;" Phl 2:8 (RV, "yea"). This is to be distinguished from No. 1.

It seems like the author is contrasting the purity of the marriage bed versus fornicating and adultery. So I tend to side with the way the KJV and other similar translations take the verse, that this is an affirmation of the holiness of purity and undefiledness of the marriage bed.

Does that mean that anything a married couple does is without sin? If I don't see this verse as a specific warning to not let your bed get defiled, that doesn't mean I have to conclude that anything done in the marriage bed is sinless.

Bringing a prostitute to have a threesome is still adultery, even if the point of the verse is not a warning about defiling the marriage bed. Looking with lust at someone else while in the marriage bed would be sinning. I suppose someone could be violent with their spouse in the marriage bed and get excited by that. Even if their spouse wants whips and chains or whatever, I suppose that could still be sinful. I'm not a whips and chains kind of guy myself and my wife isn't either. I'm just giving that as an example.

One of the topics that has come up here in the past is if a man is looking at porn and his wife knows it, is he defiling their marriage bed? If you answer yes, then the question is whether she should withold sex from him. But that would be defrauding her spouse, and that is a bit clearer in I Corinthians 7 than this interpretation from Hebrews 13.

I've also heard of churches disciplining a man who was into porn and other sexual sin. They went to the extent of providing a place for his wife and kids to move out until he repented. Fortunately, he did.

But then there are wives married to unbelievers, and we aren't supposed to do church discipline on them. Witholding sex from an unbelieving husband just doesn't seem like something a wife should do in light of passages like I Peter 3. That doesn't mention sex, but it does indicate she should be a good wife to him.

If you think that a man's sin in porn defiles the marriage bed, though, doesn't that lead to the conclusion that the other partner should not participate. What if the husband is an idolator and the wife isn't. Does that defile her, too?

The book the Shepherd of Hermas has the 'shepherd' teaching Hermas that if one partner is in sexual sin (I assume physically) that to sleep with them before their repentance defiles the other partner. I don't recall Hebrews being quoted or referred to. But the idea is rather old. It is also rather disgusting to think of sharing a marriage bed with a partner who is sleeping around, and not very healthy either.

Still, I tend to think of the verse in Hebrews 13 this as an affirmation of the holiness of marriage and the purity of the marriage bed since it is in contrast with whoremongers and adulterers. I believe someone could bring sin into their sexual relations with their spouse, but I wouldn't go so far as to conclude that an individual's sins in their own heart defile the other spouse, especially not if the sinning person is an unbeliever. A believer in unrepentant sin could defile the whole congregation, wife included, if his sin is not dealt with.

4Bear · Dec 7, 2012

Your thread title is "Is he committing adultery with his own wife?"

You have admitted that if "someone is lusting after porn in the marriage bed committing adultery in his heart with the woman he's lusting after, not with his wife."

So, he's committing adultery during their marital sex.

Seems to me that you have answered your title question.

Yes it happens.

LinkH · Dec 7, 2012

4Bear said:
Your thread title is "Is he committing adultery with his own wife?"

You have admitted that if "someone is lusting after porn in the marriage bed committing adultery in his heart with the woman he's lusting after, not with his wife."

So, he's committing adultery during their marital sex.

Seems to me that you have answered your title question.

Yes it happens.

This is a Clintonesque comment, but "That depends on what you mean by 'with'".

I wrote the title. What I meant by with is I am asking if he is committing adultery with his own wife as his partner in adultery--which is not the case if he is committing adultery with another woman in his heart during the act. Specifically, the OP has to do with if he is lusting after his own wife (if that were possible), not with with someone else's wife.

4Bear · Dec 7, 2012

LinkH said:
If you think that a man's sin in porn defiles the marriage bed, though, doesn't that lead to the conclusion that the other partner should not participate. What if the husband is an idolator and the wife isn't. Does that defile her, too?

The book the Shepherd of Hermas has the 'shepherd' teaching Hermas that if one partner is in sexual sin (I assume physically) that to sleep with them before their repentance defiles the other partner. I don't recall Hebrews being quoted or referred to. But the idea is rather old. It is also rather disgusting to think of sharing a marriage bed with a partner who is sleeping around, and not very healthy either.

My experience with a porn user is that there were times when he was motivated by lust. And other times when he wanted to connect and show the depth of his love in his love language.

A wife can exercise discernment and not respond to lust "the tinder for sin" which "cannot harm those who do not consent".

If she is fooled and it turns out to be lust when she thought it was love, she should not feel guilty for those encounters. It's on him. She is the one who has been cheated per 1 Thes 4.

LinkH said:
I believe someone could bring sin into their sexual relations with their spouse, but I wouldn't go so far as to conclude that an individual's sins in their own heart defile the other spouse, especially not if the sinning person is an unbeliever. A believer in unrepentant sin could defile the whole congregation, wife included, if his sin is not dealt with.

Sexual sin is more powerful than other sins at defiling. 1 Cor 6:18

LinkH · Dec 7, 2012

4Bear said:
My experience with a porn user is that there were times when he was motivated by lust. And other times when he wanted to connect and show the depth of his love in his love language.

A wife can exercise discernment and not respond to lust "the tinder for sin" which "cannot harm those who do not consent".

Btw, are you Roman Catholic?

If she is fooled and it turns out to be lust when she thought it was love, she should not feel guilty for those encounters. It's on him. She is the one who has been cheated per 1 Thes 4.

If I so much as looked at another woman the wrong way, there is a good chance my wife would pick up on that. But not every woman has the gifts of discernment and word of knowledge in operation like my wife does. But I don't see where the Bible teaches a wife to cut her husband off if his heart is impure. There could be church discipline for a man into sin, but if she's married to an unbeliever, he may have lust in his heart all the time.

4Bear · Dec 7, 2012

LinkH said:
Btw, are you Roman Catholic?

Depends on what "are" means.

LinkH said:
But I don't see where the Bible teaches a wife to cut her husband off if his heart is impure.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. I Cor 5

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 2 Tim 3

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Eph 5

LinkH · Dec 7, 2012

4Bear,

I can see how that might apply to a man (or woman) called a brother who is into sin and won't repent, but it would also entail not eating with that person or being around them. The church should be involved, though, not just the other spouse. But if the spouse is an unbeliever, I don't see any justification for it.

Avniel · Dec 7, 2012

I can lust after food once I eat that food I am a glutton. I can lust after beer then I am a drunkard. I can lust after another religion then I am an idolater. But if I lust after my wife then I am an adulterer? Lust is an idea it takes an action the idea itself is sinful but lust physically is adultery just like lust for money once achieved may be considered greed.

If a man is lusting after his wife he is lusting unnaturally...porn isn't natural, sodomy isn't natural, homosexuality isn't natural.....all those sexual deviance's wanted in marriage is lust the act is something else.

You can not lust after your spouse you can lust after unnatural acts at that point it has nothing to do with a desire for your spouse but a desire for a certain act. You can not lust after your spouse with natural sexual desires. If she is tired and doesn't want to have sex and you do that isn't lust probably selfishness, but it isn't lust.

4Bear · Dec 7, 2012

LinkH said:
4Bear,

I can see how that might apply to a man (or woman) called a brother who is into sin and won't repent, but it would also entail not eating with that person or being around them. The church should be involved, though, not just the other spouse. But if the spouse is an unbeliever, I don't see any justification for it.

You are a believer, as is my husband, and presumably most people here... so the passages apply.

As far as marriage to an unbeliever goes, the unbelieving spouse does not have the same power to defile as a wayward believing spouse. Hence the "no nonsense" approach with sexually immoral believers- they are far more destructive and defiling.

4Bear · Dec 7, 2012

Avniel said:
If a man is lusting after his wife he is lusting unnaturally...porn isn't natural, sodomy isn't natural, homosexuality isn't natural.....all those sexual deviance's wanted in marriage is lust the act is something else.

You can not lust after your spouse you can lust after unnatural acts at that point it has nothing to do with a desire for your spouse but a desire for a certain act.

1 Thes 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

There are two ways of possessing one's vessel in the passage
sanctification and honour
versus
lust of concupiscence

Avniel said:
And certain it is, that the woman is called the "weaker vessel" in 1 Peter 3:7, between which passage and this there seems to be some agreement. The same metaphor of a "vessel" is made use of in both; and as there, honour to be given to the weaker vessel, so here, a man's vessel is to be possessed in honour; and as there, husbands are to dwell with their wives according to knowledge so here, knowledge is required to a man's possessing his vessel aright. Now for a man to possess his vessel in this sense, is to enjoy his wife, and to use that power he has over her in a becoming manner;

What do you think "honour" means in the passage?
What is a "becoming manner" in the above commentary?

To me, armtwisting someone when s/he is tired or sick; or attempting to guilt trip him/her with Bible thumping about their "obligation" is not honoring nor a "becoming manner". (Not only that, it's a major turn-off!)

I don't understand why the question of whether "lust" or "selfishness" drives dishonoring and rude behavior is so important to you fellas? Does it make a difference?

Avniel · Dec 8, 2012

4Bear said:
1 Thes 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

There are two ways of possessing one's vessel in the passage
sanctification and honour
versus
lust of concupiscence

What do you think "honour" means in the passage?
What is a "becoming manner" in the above commentary?

To me, armtwisting someone when s/he is tired or sick; or attempting to guilt trip him/her with Bible thumping about their "obligation" is not honoring nor a "becoming manner". (Not only that, it's a major turn-off!)

I don't understand why the question of whether "lust" or "selfishness" drives dishonoring and rude behavior is so important to you fellas? Does it make a difference?

I think its just outrageous thats why I am going so hard against the statement and it's stating something the bible doesn't state. Truthfully it gets old call it what it is dishonoring, selfish ect but it isn't lusting unless it produces adultery in a marriage. I personally just don't like when people use words inappropriately and I think links and me did a good job stating that these things were all sins but the only way to lust is to want something unnatural.

LinkH · Dec 8, 2012

4Bear said:
There are two ways of possessing one's vessel in the passage
sanctification and honour
versus
lust of concupiscence

Since the topic is not committing fornication, I take 'vessel' to refer to the individual, rather than a wife. Nothing in the passage indicates he is talking about a wife.

To me, armtwisting someone when s/he is tired or sick; or attempting to guilt trip him/her with Bible thumping about their "obligation" is not honoring nor a "becoming manner". (Not only that, it's a major turn-off!)

I don't understand why the question of whether "lust" or "selfishness" drives dishonoring and rude behavior is so important to you fellas? Does it make a difference?

The issue is whether desire in marriage is lust or not.

It's not just about when one spouse says, "I'm tired tonight dear." What if both spouses are very into it, but they are both thinking "You are hot, and I want to have a good time with you tonight" instead of "I am pursuing a loving unitive bond that may lead to reproduction." If one accepts the idea being discussed in the thread, one might think sex between the couple where both are looking for a good time and focused on enjoying the experience are just yielding to lust and therefore sinning.

SavedByChrist94 · Dec 8, 2012

Lust/covet is the desire to do devious things, for example,

Admiring ones beautiful is not a sin, even if that woman is married and you wished to be with her, however,

Admiring ones beautiful and planning evil thoughts to get to that woman, lets say married, and you plan cheating/adultery like King David for example, then you sin. Jesus Christ said not to even think about doing such a thing.

People take Matthew 5:

Out of context, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) made sex and beautiful so those are good, however devious and unlawful means to getting it is sin.

So no you cannot commit adultery with your own wife nor can you with any woman you admire or want to be with, unless you get lustful/coveteous thoughts of deviousness to do unlawful, sinful things.

King David is a great example of looking at a woman with lust, see it was ok that he liked Bathsheba and even that he really wanted to be with her, however wanting to have an adulterous affair with her and then killing her husband to take her unlawfully was the sin.

Jesus Christ said not even to plan it in your heart.

Is he committing adultery with his own wife?

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