Is grace resistable?!?!?!?!?

[Hanani]

sorry about the puncuation i'm realy bad at that i hope my point still got across though ?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Hanani
sorry about the puncuation i'm realy bad at that i hope my point still got across though ?

It's cool bro.  You just sounded like you were saying something I'd be interested in reading but I couldn't quite understand what you were saying.

God bless

 

[sola fide]

I love the topic of irresistable grace, so I just wanted to chime in one comment while I have the chance.
I think the issue of whether or not scripture teaches that grace is resistable/irresistable revolves on the view of man's unregenerate condition.
If you believe that man is dead in sin, which Ephesians 2, as well as many other portions of scripture teach..then you have to ask; can a dead man make himself alive? If we are dead, then it is only God Who has the power to make us alive. So is His grace resistable? Could Lazarus have resisted being brought back from the dead? Could the world have resisted God's order of divine creation? The answer is simply no. His grace/commands are irresistable.
Now I concede that we can slow the sanctification process by our continuance in sin, but as for saving grace...who can say no to God? He has the authority of the divine imperative. When He speaks, all creation leaps at His command.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by sola fide
I love the topic of irresistable grace, so I just wanted to chime in one comment while I have the chance.
I think the issue of whether or not scripture teaches that grace is resistable/irresistable revolves on the view of man's unregenerate condition.
If you believe that man is dead in sin, which Ephesians 2, as well as many other portions of scripture teach..then you have to ask; can a dead man make himself alive? If we are dead, then it is only God Who has the power to make us alive. So is His grace resistable? Could Lazarus have resisted being brought back from the dead? Could the world have resisted God's order of divine creation? The answer is simply no. His grace/commands are irresistable.
Now I concede that we can slow the sanctification process by our continuance in sin, but as for saving grace...who can say no to God? He has the authority of the divine imperative. When He speaks, all creation leaps at His command.

 

Amen, brother!  Well said!

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Reformationist
The creation can not thwart the Will of the Creator.  If it is God's sovereign decision to bestow grace, the creation can not stop it.  If that grace enables us to resist an ungodly behavior, more often than not, we attribute that to our own willpower.  But, the truth is, it is only by God's grace that we are alive, much less able to sin, or refrain from sinning.

God bless

The Will of the Creator is to give His creations a will of their own, which they can use to freely accept or reject the gift of grace.  Despite this being explained clearly in Sirach among other places in the Bible, it makes sense, since Jesus warns us about not sinning so much.  If we didnt have any choice in the matter, what is the point of His sacrifice?

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by s0uljah
The Will of the Creator is to give His creations a will of their own, which they can use to freely accept or reject the gift of grace.  Despite this being explained clearly in Sirach among other places in the Bible, it makes sense, since Jesus warns us about not sinning so much.  If we didnt have any choice in the matter, what is the point of His sacrifice?

But, if man truly has free will.  If God does not bring His elect to salvation through effectual grace and we all have the choice whether to accept Him or reject Him, had no one ever chose Him, He could have and would have died in vain. 

Again, this all boils down to who gets the credit for our salvation.  Either Christ died for His elect, making it His predestined choice who is adopted by Him and who is not ("Jacob I loved and Esau I hated" and "it is not of him who wills, nor him who runs,but of God who shows mercy" Romans 9:13&16).  Or His sacrifice was not sufficient, as man must make the choice, of our own accord, or He cannot save us.

Which is it?  Sovereign God who has preordained ALL things, or almost but not quite sufficient God who needs man to accept His gift.

Jesus warns us not to sin because it corrupts our life, makes for a poor testimony, and holds us back from futher sanctification.

As for scripture thayt backs up election, see my signature below.  There is much more.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Jesus warns us not to sin because it corrupts our life, makes for a poor testimony, and holds us back from futher sanctification.

Why would it matter if we live a poor witness for Christ if it is already set in stone who will receive the gift and who won't? 

Michelle

 

[Smilin]

I find Grace irresistable...
Wait...ya'll aren't discussing her...
NEVERMIND...

/me back to his drawing board...

 

[Miss Shelby]

LOL!

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Miss Shelby
Why would it matter if we live a poor witness for Christ if it is already set in stone who will receive the gift and who won't? 

Michelle

Why do all of you who disagree with this always ignore all of the scripture and sensible expalnation and sieze the one seeming weakness in our arguement?

Our witness, our outward behavior is a testimony to other christians, His elect that are not converted, and the unbeliever.  Our obedience and love bring respect and Glory to God.  Do we at least agree that salvation cannot be lost once it is attained?  If so then why didn't you continue with your life as it was?  If you know your salvation is secure and cannot be lost, why not sleep in on Sunday?  Because we are commanded to do otherwise. Just as we are commanded to seek Him in prayer in order to resist temptation.

We are also commanded to witness to ALL people.  We do not know who is elect and who is not.  We are commanded to spread the gospel and God's love to ALL we come in contact with.  God may just use one of us to prick the ears of His elect.

You act as if Ref. and I are trying to be members of an exclusive club here.  YOU ARE HIS ELECT AS WELL.  If you are a child of God, He chose you.  You should praise Him for this rather than argue with me all day that it is of you!

Why not address the rest of my post above.  Read the whole thing and really think about it.  better yet, open your bible.  Find my signature, read it in the Word of God, then look at the cross reference scripture that your bible should have in it.  Stop being so pompous and study the Word instead of relying on your opinion.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Miss Shelby
Why would it matter if we live a poor witness for Christ if it is already set in stone who will receive the gift and who won't? 

Michelle

Well why do you witness?  Do you convict anyone?  Or is it the Holy Spirit?  Could God do it without you?  I think witnessing is very inportant but I think that either way you take irresistable grace witnessing is just a way that we can share in the joy of leading someone to slavation and fellowship with God.  Either way God does not need us and God will find a way to show Himself  to the ones He wants to show Hmself to no matter what we do.  Witnessing is another one of the blessings God gives us after conversion. 

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Gabriel
Why do all of you who disagree with this always ignore all of the scripture and sensible expalnation and sieze the one seeming weakness in our arguement?

Gabe, it's not a weakness in "our argument."  It's a weakness in man because of his depravity and the blinding, deceitful nature of sin.  We should put our faith in our Father who "works all things to the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose."  Our faith needs to be in Him, not in our ability to present a good argument.

God bless

 

[sola fide]

Well said Gabriel....God uses the foolishness of the world to covict people. Our testimony is a part of that foolishness. God has always used something to convict/speak to His elect...whether it be a burning bush, a donkey, a whale, or the testimony of one of Christ's redeemed. Our words and actions don't influence people to be saved, but they are a testimony of God's grace, and God will use us in His eternal purpose as He calls out those He has chosen. How can anyone hear without a preacher? Or how can they understand the ways of God if they do not see Godly people living their lives differently from the world?
Predestination doesn't change the way we should live our lives. In fact, it should make us all the more vigilant to submit ourselves to God's will, and be used as a small tool in His eternal purpose.
We already know the future destiny of the universe/planet do we not? We know that it is predetermined that Christ will return and rule upon this earth to the rejoicing of the elect and the judgment of the reprobate. We know that the future of the world can be summed up in one statement-the glory of God. As the elect, we have an opportunity to share in that glory...why would we just sit around and do nothing?

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Gabe, it's not a weakness in "our argument."  It's a weakness in man because of his depravity and the blinding, deceitful nature of sin.  We should put our faith in our Father who "works all things to the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose."  Our faith needs to be in Him, not in our ability to present a good argument.

God bless

That was my point.  They use the weakness of our (man's) limits to prove their point all the while ignoring the truth of the Word that is presented. 

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Which is it? Sovereign God who has preordained ALL things, or almost but not quite sufficient God who needs man to accept His gift.

He doesn't _need_ us for anything. He loves us and wants us to love Him back. How can He create something that chooses to love Him completely out of its own will, right from the moment of its creation? That is a logical absurdity, like God making a rock too big for Him to lift.  Or do you suppose we are robots and have no choice in the matter, in which case, the whole concept of sin is pointless?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Why do all of you who disagree with this always ignore all of the scripture and sensible expalnation and sieze the one seeming weakness in our arguement?

There are many weaknesses in your argument, actually, and you also "ignore" scripture and "sensible" explanation.

Consider "the truth of the Word that is presented":


--


Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God predestined us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Peter 1:1-2 - Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 - we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. This is predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

1 Cor. 15:49 - we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 - we see that the names in the book of life can be blotted out. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; Rom. 8:29-30- therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by foreknowledge. As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.

Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God's image and likeness.

Acts 10:35, 45 - these texts show that non-Christians can also be saved if they fear God, even though they haven't formally accepted Jesus as Savior at an altar call. They just do not have the fullness of the means of salvation.

1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved. But our freewill may choose to reject God's grace. In order for our gift of freewill not to be a sham, God must also give us the freedom to reject Him.

2 Peter 3:9 - the Lord doesn't wish that any should perish, but come to full repentance.

James 1:13-14 - God tempts no one. Each person is tempted by his own desire. God gives us freewill to cooperate with Him or reject Him.

1 Cor. 10:13 - God permits temptation, but does not author temptation. God also provides us sufficient grace to overcome any temptation.

John 3:16-17 - God so loved the world He sent His Son, that the world might be saved (not that only the "elect" might be saved).

John 4:42 - Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Some will perish by their own choosing.

Rom. 5:6,18 - Christ died for the ungodly (all of us), and His righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (not just the elect).

2 Cor. 5:14-15 - Christ has died for all (not just the elect), that those who live might live for Him.

1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus Christ gave Himself as a  ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.

1 Tim. 4:10 - our hope is on the living God who is the Savior of all men (not just the elect).

Titus 2:11 - for the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men (not just the elect).

1 John 2:2 - Christ is the expiation for the sins of the whole world (not just the elect). But not all are predestined to glory.

1 John 4:14 - again, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect).

Sir. 15:11-20 - salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God's sovereignty includes our freewill. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined.

 

[Ben johnson]

Finally, someone citing some SCRIPTURES!

This discussion always turns into a "Predestined-Election" one. If I may cite some Scriptures myself, with a few editorial points:

"For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works lest anyone boast." PE's say the word, "that", is "THAT SAVING-FAITH". So then the verse REALLY reads, "For by grace have you been saved through grace, and that grace is not of yourselves it is the unilateral gift of God." Does that make SENSE? Do you really think Paul meant to say "by grace have you been saved through grace"? (Ignoring the gender mismatch between "THAT" and "FAITH"---Greek requires modifying words to have the same gender.) The second "GRACE" is undeniable, IF we are predestined for salvation. For our own belief has nothing to do with our salvation, He saves us irresistibly---saving-faith is INSTALLED by God, so saving faith is a SECOND dispensation of grace.

Grace-dispensation-1: Jesus' sacrifice is mere pageantry---NOT effective, we were decided BEFORE.
Grace-dispensation-2: God installs belief in those He chooses to be saved.

This is "Predestined Election". Is it Scriptural?

Now, the thread topic asks, "Is grace resistible?" A few Scriptures:

Ac 7:51 - "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you. "

Ro 13:2 - "Whosoever therefore resists the authority, resists the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves d&#097mnation. " (KJV)

Jn8:43-44 - "Why do you understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you WANT to do the desires of your father".
Uhmmm, where is the irresistibility in this?

First we can demonstrate that ALL MEN are offered salvation.

1. God DESIRES all to be saved (1Tim2:4, 2Pet3:9)
2. Justification CAME to all men, in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY that condemnation came to all ("SO THEN, EVEN SO")---but only those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and who RECEIVE the gift of righteousness, only THEY will reign with Jesus---only THEY are justified! (Rm5:17-18)
3. Jesus is the propitiation for sins, for the SAVED and for the LOST 1Jn2:2
4. Entering into His fold is CLEAR PERSONAL CHOICE (Jn10:9---TIS-ANYONE!, Rev22:17)
5. Our own will effects our salvation---"Let O THELOS WHOSOEVER WILL take of the water of life freely." Rev22:17
6. Abiding is CLEAR PERSONAL CHOICE (Jn15:6, 1Jn4:15-16, 2Jn1:7-9)
7. Scripture is replete with real warnings against falling from salvation (Heb3:12-14, 10:26-36, Col1:22-23, Jms5:19-20, 2Pet2:20-22, 1Tim4:1,16, 2Tim2:11-13, 1Pet5:8, 1Pet1:4-11)---these warnings are NOT written as "hyperbole"---PEs claim they are "EMPTY warnings, fatherly-advice-against-that-which-CANNOT-happen"; the word "hyperbole" means not to be taken literally---and I believe they ARE to be taken literally!

(You all need to look up EACH of these---there's gonna be a TEST next week, and your SCORES will go on your permanent records!)

It is amusing the hoops through which PE's will jump to "rewrite Scripture" to accomodate the "PE" view---for instance, in 2Pet1, words like "escape corruption through TRUE KNOWLEDGE of Lord & Savior Jesus", are repeated in chapter 2---but somehow the same words don't mean the SECOND escapees are SAVED. Even though it (ch2) further says, "far better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than AFTER KNOWING to have EPISTREPHO-EK turned away from the holy commandment".

Epistrepho ek really means "turn away from salvation".
Epignosis really means "true knowledge".
Apopheugo really means "escaped". "Escaped from corruption" in chapter 1, escaped from defilements in chapter 2; there is no way to understand chapter 1 "ESCAPEES" as saved, and NOT ALSO understand chapter 2 "ESCAPEES" as saved.



( @ Reformationist & Gabriel and all the other "PE"s...)

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Amen Ben.

 

[sola fide]

I exhort all who do not adhere to the view of predestination/election to think of the ramifications of their view. The main consequence being a weak God who cannot accomplish His own will. It is His will that every person past, present, and even those already in h-e-double hockey sticks be saved right?
When God said the word that goes forth from His mouth will not return void, what did He mean by that? Did He mean it could possibly return void? Did He mean that it would only return void from those who reject Him? No, He meant that His word would "accomplish what [He] please, and prosper in the thing for which [He] sent it"- Isaiah 55:11. His word is Christ...His word is the Holy Scriptures, and His word will accomplish His will.
S alvation is all about a covenant correct? The covenant of grace. That same chapter of Isaiah says in verse 3 "Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you."
So the question remains; who makes a covenant with whom? Do we make a covenant with God, or does God make a covenant with us? Well, if we were the covenant makers, then we'd all go to h-e-double hockey sticks b/c we all break our promises in one way or another. We are covenant breakers, He is faithful. So much so that He came to the earth and died so that His own wrath toward us could be appeased. God is the covenant maker, and He does not break His covenants. So now, do we come running to God begging to make a covenant with Him? No, He seeks His own and regenerates there heart to come into covenant with them.
I notice someone quoted Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you." What was failed to be mentioned here is that the people who resisted the Holy Spirit were stiff-necked and uncicumcised in heart and ears. Who circumcises hearts? That's right, you guessed it, God. How can someone embrace the Holy Spirit if God has not first taken out their heart of stone and put in a heart of flesh? Remember, "God shows mercy on whom He wills and whom He wills He hardens". - Rom. 9:18
Yes the gospel can be rejected....and will be rejected by all those who have a heart of stone. But God has the unresistable ability of replacing one's heart through regeneration. I didn't choose the day I would be born again, and neither does anyone else. You don't just wake up in the morning and say, hmm...I think I'll be born again today. That's absurd. The INWARD call of the Holy Spirit regenerates...and God will accomplish what He wills.
You know, for all this talk about predestination, I've yet to see a good response to Romans 9....someone want to take a crack at that one. I want to someone to go ahead and tell me it doesn't speak of God's sovereign choice in election and predestination.

Grace to you.

 

[Ben johnson]

I exhort all who do not adhere to the view of predestination/election to think of the ramifications of their view.

Ramifications? First arises the question, "what is GOD'S WILL"? Related to that, is "what does WILL mean?" There is the BOULEMA-DECREE of God, (what God DECREES will happen), and there is the THELEMA-DESIRE. For instance, in John 6:40, "This is the WILL of God, that all who behold Jesus and believe in Him, may be saved"---will, THELEMA/desire.

Your example in Rom9:18 uses "thelo", which also means "desire".

Ramifications? Your position is founded on the assumption that it is God's WILL (decree) that SOME be saved and the REST be condemned. (So much for "they are without excuse" of Rm1:20---for they certainly DO have ecxuse if GOD is the choice-maker! And so much for a just God, because "just" means to mete out what they deserve; and without personal responsibility, God CHOOSES not based on what they deserve but on other criteria.

Ramifications? If God WILLS that we can CHOOSE, then we are responsible---we must "endure to the end", we must "be diligent to make certain of our calling and election ...that the gates of Heaven be provided", we must "keep ourselves in the love of God, awaiting the mercy of Christ to eternal life", we must "therefore do NOT throw away your CONFIDENCE (which is JESUS!)", we "need diligence so that when we have done the will of God we will receive the Promise", we need to "take care lest there be in any of us an evil, unbelieving heart hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God", we are "presented holy and blameless before Him IF INDEED we continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not moved away from the Hope of the Gospel (JESUS is the HOPE!)", we must not "go too far and not abide in the teachings of Christ so that we have not God!", we must not "be again entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome", we must "not fall away by deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons", we must "not be shipwrecked in regards to our faith", we must not "be taken captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy ...rather than on Christ"...

...each and every one of those in the previous paragraph is a Scripture verse! Shall I cite the chapters and verse numbers?

Ramifications? We-who-believe-in-OSNAS, understand salvation as fellowship with CHRIST (1Jn1:3,6); and we must persevere and spend time with God; "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you!" Jms4 Thus, the only ramification for US, is a deeper relationship with our Lord!

YOU, on the other hand, (speaking to those who believe in "predestination" or "carnality" or "security", the three facets of "OSAS",) you believe that it is GOD who maintains and perseveres you; counting on the FACT (?) that salvation CANNOT be lost; but if it CAN, then YOUR position risks eternity...

I've yet to see a good response to Romans 9....someone want to take a crack at that one.

Happy to oblige! From my book, "OSAS":

To understand the Romans 9 passage, let us first come to understanding of the concept of “total depravity”. One of the primary posits of “Irresistible Grace” is that man is completely, totally, depraved; so much so, that he cannot ever even consider the possibility of accepting Christ as Lord and Savior. But does Scripture support that view? Consider Romans 1:18ff, “For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for GOD MADE IT EVIDENT TO THEM. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. For even though THEY KNEW GOD, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, AND THEIR FOOLISH HEART WAS DARKENED. Professing to be wise they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity... they exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions... and because they did not acknowledge God any longer, God GAVE THEM OVER to a depraved mind”.

In Romans 1 it says very clearly and undeniably that God is revealed to all men. It is then up to each to accept Him or reject Him. Clearly, although “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there are NONE righteous” (Romans 3), God reveals Himself to each person, in enough measure that the person HAS the ability to choose. Thus the “They are without excuse”. It also undeniably says that God, because of their conscious rejection of Him and embracement of “the lie”, gives them over to a depraved mind. Does this mean that their hardened hearts are their own fault? Consider Hebrews 3:13, “Lest any of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin”. The Greek for “hardened” here is “skleruno”, which means “made stubborn or obstinate”. The same word as used in Romans 9:18; which, apparently indicates that God does the “hardening and softening”, but in context with Romans 1, we gain the deeper understanding that the hardening is a result of their conscious choice (their heart darkened because they chose “the lie”), and the “God hardens whom He desires” is understood to mean that He gives over to a base and depraved mind those who reject Him.

Technically, in Exodus 10:1 it reads “made heavy”, and verses 10:20, 27, 11:10 and 14:8 mean “made strong”. Was Pharaoh a helpless pawn in the machinations of an absolutely-controlling-God? Or was his “hardening” because of his choice to “embrace the lie”? It is theologically sound to understand the latter. God “hardens” people in the sense that He honors their choice to reject Him and gives them over to a base and depraved mind.

Now, if God does not predestine, then what of the passage in Romans 9 that speaks of “pottery”? It clearly says that some are created “for honor”, and some “for common”.

NOTE---the words here, are "time" (honor) and "atimia", dishonor; the translators of NAS render this as "common"---the understanding is that both vessels are saved. While 2Tim2:20-21 uses an identical analogy to understand "atimia/dishonor/unsaved", I think this passage differs---because it offers a THIRD vessel, "of wrath fitted for destruction" ("fitted" is middle voice, "fitted themselves")...

Let us assume that they are on the potter’s wheel because of their choice to submit to Him---they are already saved (as we have already established in this discourse). 1Corinthians 12:4ff tells us that God uses each of us as He chooses, different parts of the body, for the common good, as He chooses. Some for honor, some for common. Perfect harmony, the clay submits to the potter to use as He wills.

Verse Romans 9:23, the “endured with patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction”? What caused them to BE “vessels of wrath”, and to BE “prepared for destruction”? Consider the parable of Matthew 13:24ff; the landowner said “Allow the tares (weeds, grass) to grow with the wheat, but in the harvest the wheat will be gathered and the weeds burned.” Thus the weeds were “endured with patience”, PERFECTLY in harmony with 2Peter3:9! The un-submitted vessels-of-clay, He endures for now, but their rebellious state assures their future destruction (Matt13:30,41-42, 25:32,41; Rom2:5). Is there anything in this passage that indicates God overrides our will to salvation? No. Is there anything in this passage that indicates God honors free will? Consider 9:32 “They did not achieve righteousness, because they pursued it by works rather than faith”. Clearly they made the wrong choice. Verse 33 demonstrates that He was a stumbling stone because they did not believe. Continuing in chapter 10, “They have (wrong) zeal for God; not knowing about God’s righteousness, seeking to establish their own, they did not submit themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” Belief is a choice, very clearly written in this passage. It is not predestined.


This excerpt from the book I'm writing, is only one of MANY points. In the preceding long-sentence, I threw a whole bunch of other verses at you. "Predestined election" is falsified because:
&#149God calls ("helkuo/drags") ALL men to Him
&#149God DESIRES all men to be saved.
&#149Justification CAME to ALL MEN
&#149Only those who BELIEVE, who RECEIVE the abundance of grace & gift of righteousness are saved
&#149Belief is a CHOICE
&#149abiding in Him, in salvation is a CHOICE
&#149Faith-unto-salvation comes NOT FROM GOD but from OUR OWN HEARTS
&#149There are MANY warning against apostasy---too many to merely dismiss as "hyperbole"...

This is WAY long enough---ball is in your court...