Is God's Existence Possible?

[Tree of Life]

I can see how we'd like to think so based on the intuitions we've developed from worldly experience.

We think we can run the clock backwards until we catch the hand of the builder making his final adjustments.

We want everything to reasonable, in all domains. I dont know that it is tho.

Ok let me try a line of inquiry that might reveal what I'm trying to get at.

Do you believe that the material world had a cause?

 

[Tree of Life]

I think its possible. Not sure tho, as I just cant really grasp the full implications, and whether those implications are possible. Its really too much to ask to be confident that its possible..

Well let's go with your inclination.

I would suggest that if God's existence is possible, then God exists. It really doesn't make sense to have a tenuous view on this issue. You should either claim that God's existence is impossible, or you should start to reckon with the reality that God exists.

 

[durangodawood]

...Do you believe that the material world had a cause?

No. It might have a cause. Or alternatively it could be eternal, uncreated and uncaused.

 

[Tree of Life]

No. It might have a cause. Or alternatively it could be eternal, uncreated and uncaused.

If it had a cause, then the universe is not necessary.

If it is eternal and uncaused, then the universe is necessary.

Sounds like you're not sure which is correct.

 

[gaara4158]

I noticed that @gaara4158 voted "No. It's not possible that God exists." What makes God's existence impossible?

“I don’t know” wasn’t on there before. Depending on what definition of “all powerful” and “all knowing” you’re using, you might be invoking some logical contradictions.

 

[Tree of Life]

“I don’t know” wasn’t on there before. Depending on what definition of “all powerful” and “all knowing” you’re using, you might be invoking some logical contradictions.

Could you elaborate on what contradictions you think are implicit in these concepts?

 

[durangodawood]

If it had a cause, then the universe is not necessary.

If it is eternal and uncaused, then the universe is necessary.

Necessary for what?

...Sounds like you're not sure which is correct.

Of course I'm unsure which is correct. On what basis could I possibly know about a putative cause? Its waaay outside my domain.

 

[Tree of Life]

Necessary for what?

Necessary in the philosophical, ontological sense. It is necessary rather than contingent. If the universe is eternal and uncaused, then its existence does not depend on anything else. It exists because it necessarily exists. Everything else like ice cream, planets, and puppies depends on the existence of the universe. They are contingent. They might not have existed and they might go out of existence, whereas the universe would still necessarily exist.

 

[durangodawood]

Necessary in the philosophical, ontological sense. It is necessary rather than contingent. If the universe is eternal and uncaused, then its existence does not depend on anything else. It exists because it necessarily exists. Everything else like ice cream, planets, and puppies depends on the existence of the universe. They are contingent. They might not have existed and they might go out of existence, whereas the universe would still necessarily exist.

Does "necessarily exists" also mean there is no possible alternative situation to its existence? Like it "has to" exist (for whatever reason)?

Thats a little different than "necessary" meaning not contingent on anything else.

 

[gaara4158]

Could you elaborate on what contradictions you think are implicit in these concepts?

Absolute forms of omnipotence are vulnerable to the stone paradox, but if you reduce God’s powers to maximal power within logic and his personal nature, then I, too, meet those requirements. I can’t defy logic and I can’t go against my nature.

 

[Tree of Life]

Does "necessarily exists" also mean there is no possible alternative situation to its existence? Like it "has to" exist (for whatever reason)?

Thats a little different than "necessary" meaning not contingent on anything else.

That's correct. The idea of "necessary" includes both these things you've mentioned. If something is not contingent, then it necessarily exists. And if something necessarily exists, then it is not contingent.

If you believe there's a possible alternative to the universe's necessity then you may believe that it's possible that God exists.

 

[Tree of Life]

Absolute forms of omnipotence are vulnerable to the stone paradox, but if you reduce God’s powers to maximal power within logic and his personal nature, then I, too, meet those requirements. I can’t defy logic and I can’t go against my nature.

The stone paradox is not a paradox at all. Harry Frankfurt, philosopher at Princeton, has demonstrated this.

Let's say that God can create a rock that an omnipotent being could not lift. If God can do that logically impossible thing, then he can also do the logically impossible thing of lifting the rock that he cannot lift.

No contradictions there.

 

[Tree of Life]

In other words, "a rock that an omnipotent being cannot lift" is just as logically absurd as "a square circle". It sounds like it's a concept, but it's just a string of words put together.

 

[durangodawood]

That's correct. The idea of "necessary" includes both these things you've mentioned. If something is not contingent, then it necessarily exists. And if something necessarily exists, then it is not contingent.

If you believe there's a possible alternative to the universe's necessity then you may believe that it's possible that God exists.

I honestly dont know:
1. whether or not the universe is contingent on anything else
2. whether or not it has to exist to explain anything other than it own contents

It seems unreasonable that I should be expected know. How could I know?

edit: further, anyone who says they do know, I'd have to really question where their knowledge comes from.

 

[gaara4158]

In other words, "a rock that an omnipotent being cannot lift" is just as logically absurd as "a square circle". It sounds like it's a concept, but it's just a string of words put together.

Sure. Then God is bound to the constraints of logic, that’s fine. Can he lie? Can he commit an act of evil? Be unfair?

 

[Tree of Life]

Sure. Then God is bound to the constraints of logic, that’s fine. Can he lie? Can he commit an act of evil? Be unfair?

I wouldn't view logic as a constraint like a limitation of power. Something that violates logic is simply incoherent.

Those who affirm God's omnipotence mean to say that God is able to do all his holy will. That is, God can do whatever he wants to do. Since God does not want to commit evil, his inability to do evil probably shouldn't be thought of as a constraint.

But we also see here how God's power is different from ours. We are not able to do all we want. There are many things that we would like to do but lack the power to do them. God's not like this.

 

[gaara4158]

I wouldn't view logic as a constraint like a limitation of power. Something that violates logic is simply incoherent.

Those who affirm God's omnipotence mean to say that God is able to do all his holy will. That is, God can do whatever he wants to do. Since God does not want to commit evil, his inability to do evil probably shouldn't be thought of as a constraint.

But we also see here how God's power is different from ours. We are not able to do all we want. There are many things that we would like to do but lack the power to do them. God's not like this.

That’s fine, then, if that’s how you define omnipotence then it is not inherently contradictory.

 

[Tree of Life]

That’s fine, then, if that’s how you define omnipotence then it is not inherently contradictory.

With definitions like this in mind, do you believe it's possible that God exists?

 

[gaara4158]

With definitions like this in mind, do you believe it's possible that God exists?

I wouldn't say that. I would just say that as far as I can tell there are no fatal contradictions in the definition of God you have provided. I have no idea what's possible beyond what we are able to describe coherently.

 

[durangodawood]

With definitions like this in mind, do you believe it's possible that God exists?

....I have no idea what's possible beyond what we are able to describe coherently.

How are we supposed to be able to judge the actual possibility of such things?

Maybe there's some good reason that its impossible, but I cant access that reason due to the completely far out nature of the topic in question.