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So are you claiming god went to sodom and told them to stop?
As for manipulation... Why do you believe... or rather why do you not believe? Because it will mean you are going to hell otherwise.
So your parents told you of said rules right? There was no bible, there was no 10 commandments when god did this. So it was his ignorance to not even tell the people what they were doing was wrong. Or was burning them alive and sending them to hell a way for him to tell them? Such a loving act...
To equate it with your analogy it'd be like your parents grounding you, and when you ask why, they can makes some b.s. about you doing something you weren't suppose to when you were 8. It'd make no sense then, why does it make sense to you now?
And this is just one example, the most common granted, but there are numerous examples of god slaying people for them not doing what he wanted them to. Which again reiterates the idea of God not really giving us free will.
God: you can do what ever you want and what ever you feel. But abide by these rules less I kill you outright.
Where is the freedom?
God gave us free will, which means we are free to bless God or to curse God, to do as God commands or to ignore God and do as we will.
When your only two choices are to follow God's will or suffer eternal torment, it isn't much of a free choice. Enough with the free will junk, it's nonsense.
Let's say I have a big stick and decide to hit you with it. That's an evil thing, and as a result of my evil you will suffer. So we might ask why God allows evil, why God allows suffering. From your perspective the evil and suffering are very real.
But the only way God can prevent that suffering is to deny my freedom to use the big stick in the first place. If we expect God to override our free will to make sure we never make the wrong decision, of what value is that free will in the first place? We weren't made as some kind of automated being that simply follow whatever the programming tells us, we were made as sentient beings with the freedom to choose.
We could also argue that perhaps God should intervene to prevent the greatest evils, and it's easy to make an emotional argument that God should prevent rape, genocide and the like. But that only raises the question of how much evil God should permit - if all of the most heinous crimes were eliminated because God prevented them we'd just be up in arms expecting God to prevent the things that just been moved up to the top of the "evil list". And before long we'd be right back with nobody having free will in case we did anything a little bit nasty to someone else.
Well if your God is omniscient and omnipotent, why would he create a Universe where anybody has to be killed, raped, starved, etc... knowing full well beforehand that it would happen? If God is omniscient and knows all that will happen beforehand, you have no free will. The two ideas are fundamentally incompatible. Sorry, but your argument is not logically cohesive at all although it is the standard fare used by Christians to address the problem of evil.
So ultimately it comes back to us. We can choose to do good, or we can choose to do evil, and either decision has consequences.
I have addressed this many times and can copy and paste a ton of answers that no one here has given yet.Well probably because you're applying a supernatural entity smiting you for your own decisions when with out his smiting you would otherwise have gone on living. You didn't kill yourself by jumping off the bridge, you didn't electrocute yourself by sticking your fingers in. When you choose to "spill your seed" instead of impregnating the woman you're not choosing to be smited by god. Yet he did it anyways.
But god is able to judge when ever I suppose you will say. And the loving god will kill you outright for doing something he doesn't like. If you're content on believing such self protecting thought process then there's little I can do to persuade otherwise. (self protecting as in... Well why don't we die when we don't impreggers now? "God chooses not to, God chose to then." Yadda yadda. Just apply the God did it answer and all is safe.)
(just reread the post and the "you didn't kill yourself" parts may be confusing if you assuming I'm claiming you didn't kill yourself doing these acts. That's not what I was saying. I was saying that the act of spilling your seed and dieing was not self inflicted using free will as it was upon the idea of learning to fly off a bridge and trying to charge a battery using yourself as a makeshift wire.)
*passing torch off to evan if he so chooses*
Power knocked out via storm for almost 4 days. Lost urge to debate meaninglessly. Have fun! Your god ruined lots of food for 5000 people :'(. Wasteful.
But he works in mysterious ways!
Sorry but that's not in the Bible. So much for the all-knowing 21 year old's 18 years of mastery ...
"Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools"
I'm fully aware of that not being in the Bible; however, it is, at least in my dialogues with theists, the bread-and-butter response of Christians,
I was satirizing the intellectual dishonesty of such a statement
No, I haven't twisted your words, neither am I interested in any dialogue above the level of your sincerity. You do in fact repeatedly present yourself as some sort of expert, while you simultaneously betray a lack of even the most fundamental understanding, vis:
I never presented myself an expert; I made no claim of having any "expert" status on anything. You are again twisting my words in spite of your claims of "NUH UH" to make me appear conceited. I was simply saying that I have read your holy book and know what it has to say. I have in no way presented myself as an "expert".
"If God is omniscient and knows all that will happen beforehand, you have no free will. The two ideas are fundamentally incompatible."
Explain to me how those two ideas are even remotely compatible. If God created me knowing what my path would be ahead of time, then I don't really have a free will. My decisions are bound to the personality and traits that God gave me. If God knows the future, free will is illusory. It is you who displays a lack of fundamental understanding of logic.
I could take the time to do more than point out the error and actually correct it, but I am commanded not to. See that's the real difference between us here; you're talking about things that exist only in your mind. I'm talking about One I know. Until you come to that realization there's nothing else meaningful I can do for you.
I suppose we are at a stalemate then. My logical objections to your religion are what you perceive to only exist in my mind, a nonsensical statement and frankly pathetic defence mechanism (again a bare assertion on your part). And you claim to "know" of this One you speak of. Knowledge eliminates the need for faith. Are you saying that you have direct knowledge of God? Do you directly converse with him? If so, then why do you need faith? Knowledge and faith are fundamentally incompatible states of mind. You cannot positively know something and have faith in it (in the dictionary sense) at the same time.
E: I was simply saying that I have read your holy book and know what it has to say. I have in no way presented myself as an "expert".
R: that IS to present yourself as an expert. Until you humble yourself to the point of recognition that you can read it's words while gleaning ZERO understanding, I think a strong case can be made for reading it possibly doing more harm than good. I think we all have a mixed bad in that one.
So you're basically saying that your God is capable of creating the cosmos, but seems incapable of generating a holy text that doesn't require a squad of theologians to interpret?
I read the Bible with an open mind alongside theological interpretations. It just didn't convince me; that is what I am saying. I have also genuinely prayed to God to guide me to him, but never felt his presence as many claim to. Finally, when I look at the world around me, events seem to be more governed by the will of man and random chance than the intervening hand of a loving God. That is why I do not believe. What about that sentiment belies a false sense of mastery?
E: If God created me knowing what my path would be ahead of time, then I don't really have a free will. My decisions are bound to the personality and traits that God gave me.
R: At least you've opened up enough to be able to see your error. G-d's omniscience does not equate to your last statement here, not at all. This may be as simple as definition of terms, but I suspect a deeper understanding also comes to bear. Character is shaped by action. We can exercise self-discipline to do the right thing, and over time it becomes easer, for example.
Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other; here is what I am saying.
Let us assume for the sake of argument that God has direct knowledge of the future and is directly responsible for the creation of the universe. This means that God created the universe knowing full well beforehand that you and I would be having this conversation someday and that I would be an atheist. I am assuming that you would agree with these statements so far as most Christians believe God to be omniscient, having direct knowledge of all things past, present, and future.
I'm saying that although, yes, maybe I am in control of my own actions, those actions are still predetermined by the way God created the universe. So, really, it was destined all along under an omniscient God that I would come to be an atheist. He created the universe knowing beforehand that I would have the lack of belief that I do. So, the free will argument fails in this respect.
E: My logical objections to your religion are what you perceive to only exist in my mind, a nonsensical statement and frankly pathetic defence mechanism
R: Evan, you consistently present yourself as an expert. Until you can see that and repent, you're just going to spin your wheels.
You are engaging in question-begging by assuming the need for repentance in your argument.
What I'm saying is you're expressing your own thoughts, which is a direct counter to your claim of understanding Scripture.
Uh... well... yeah... I am expressing my thoughts regarding the scripture... y'know, that thing theologians and priests make a career out of?
Oh, wait... that's right, your God doesn't want anyone thinking for themselves, unless they happen agree with him of course... dangerous habit, that.
E: And you claim to "know" of this One you speak of. Knowledge eliminates the need for faith. Are you saying that you have direct knowledge of God? Do you directly converse with him? If so, then why do you need faith? Knowledge and faith are fundamentally incompatible states of mind. You cannot positively know something and have faith in it (in the dictionary sense) at the same time.
R: Simple resolution: the dictionary definition is irrelevant. What's the Biblical definition of Faith, and how could you possibly consider using anything else in a discussion like this? Following that definition, your statement here is quite false, and again shows the depth of your lack of insight on this subject.
How convenient that you are free to define faith however you choose. Cheekiness aside, are you saying that you know God to exist, but have faith in him more in a trust sense than regarding the question of his existence?
My understanding of faith is twofold:
1. Believing in a concept beyond what is warranted by existing evidence.
2. Putting trust in a person or deity.
I was taking issue with the coexistence of definition 1 and claiming to have direct interaction with God. Definition 2 admittedly is still compatible. If you have a different definition or feel that I am oversimplifying the concept, do share.
If you truly want to understand any of this, you'll have to humble yourself to become like a child, a babe in Christ, desiring the sincere milk of the Word as a starting point.
Children lack critical thinking skills and the ability to make rational inquiries. So, I suppose that statement makes sense. Like I said, if God wants non-believers to be persuaded by the Bible, perhaps he should have written it a little less cryptically and not filled it full of scientific, geographic, and historic inaccuracies.
But he works in mysterious ways! It's all in his grand mastah plan that's totally flawless! CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?!?!? The ruining of food is TOTALLY necessary to bring about the end of t3h evilz!
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