Is God the "first cause of everything" (including sin) as the Westminster Confession says?

[Hank77]

I'm saying there are variant readings. I'm sure you're aware of other places where there are variant readings. I submit that the evidence for the singular reading is stronger.

Yes, if your're looking at a text that has the plural reading, no if you're looking at one that has the singular reading.

Here is how the singular reading reads.

John 1:12-13 (Our literal translation following the earliest known reading) 12 But [to] as many as received Him He gave authority to become children of God, to those believing in the name of Him 13 who was born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Sorry Butch, I haven't seen you state which text (MS) states the singular form of the Greek. Would you do that, please?

Perhaps some think this passage will just go away. No one has dared to touch this. Maybe some of the non-Reformed will attempt to tell us if this passage refers to God's predestination of everything, that God is the first cause of all that happens.

I think I already did that here..........post 135
The position, stated below, is not the Reformed position. Do you have an objection or see something that I am missing?

So it is not that they were created/born to be sons of God, but that by His authority, He gives them the authority to become His sons, by receiving His Son. This authority to be a son is not because of natural bloodline, not because of a man's position by inheritance, not because he or anyone can will it to be so. It is only available by the means God has determined.
We see this played out between Esau and Jacob. By blood, by position for inheritance, and by the will of Issac, Esau should have inherited the blessing. But because Rebecca and Jacob believed God, Jacob inherited the blessing.

And so it has been through out time. It is those who believe whatever God has revealed to man during their life time, that have the authority to become the sons of the living God.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

The Westminster Confession of Faith says what it says because the scriptures, God's word, said it first!

Why would one glory in such a belief?

James tells us where sin originates, but that would put a giant hole in Reformed beliefs. So, I see where you have to originate your own thoughts (Isaiah 55:9).

That scripture doesn't at all support your contention.

Whereas Isaiah 45:7 does support the WCoF.
And how can it not?
To think evil, which is the antithesis of righteousness, can exist independent of, come to be independent of, the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, creator.
How could anyone argue that God created all that exists! And then argue that creation can only be the positive, the righteous, the good, the moral. And therefore something greater than himself overcame that positive, that righteous state, the good, the moral, by overshadowing it with the opposite. The antithesis, the inverse.

And that then makes invalid the scriptures that tell us of God's sovereign will and plan for all creation before it came to exist. Because not only is Isaiah 45:7 false, but God can only create the good. While something else created the bad and with omniscience watching.

 

[EmSw]

The Westminster Confession of Faith says what it says because the scriptures, God's word, said it first!

That scripture doesn't at all support your contention.

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

If God did not cause Judah to sin, neither did it come into His mind, who do you suppose caused Judah's abomination?

Whereas Isaiah 45:7 does support the WCoF.
And how can it not?
To think evil, which is the antithesis of righteousness, can exist independent of, come to be independent of, the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, creator.
How could anyone argue that God created all that exists! And then argue that creation can only be the positive, the righteous, the good, the moral. And therefore something greater than himself overcame that positive, that righteous state, the good, the moral, by overshadowing it with the opposite. The antithesis, the inverse.

In the six days of creation, we see everything God created was good. Please show us where anything He created was evil.

And that then makes invalid the scriptures that tell us of God's sovereign will and plan for all creation before it came to exist. Because not only is Isaiah 45:7 false, but God can only create the good. While something else created the bad and with omniscience watching.

Perhaps you can show us God's sovereign will and plan in the Bible for all creation before it came to exist. Show us God's sovereign will for light and darkness, for sin and holiness, for truth and heresy, for honoring and dishonoring, for belief and unbelief. What is God's sovereign will for you? What is His sovereign plan for you?

Is His sovereign will and plan of a new heart and a new spirit for you? Ezekiel 18:31 - Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.

 

[nobdysfool]

God created as He did, knowing that sin would enter, and He allows it because it serves His Purpose, very little of which he has shared with us. He expects us to Trust and Believe based on what He HAS revealed. God did not directly cause or create sin, He created in such a way that sin would come about. Sin is a tool that God uses. Satan is God's mad dog, on a leash.

Ezekiel 18:31 is cited as though that, and that alone, is the sum total of how to get saved, which is a gross misapplication of Scripture. Which of us has or can cast away all transgression from among ourselves, and get, (or make) ourselves a clean heart and a new spirit?

Which man can do that?

Tell me one man, born of Adam that can, or has done so.

 

[rnmomof7]

The reason the natural man doesn't receive the things of God is because he chooses not to. The Greek word "dechomai" means to take with the hand or to take hold of. It's in the middle voice showing that it is the natural man who is doing the receiving.

Indeed I know the giver


And then the question.. .why do some choose to and others not.. are they smarter ? more holy? more clever?

 

[rnmomof7]

No, I don't believe in original sin. You didn't answer my questions though. I asked, where does Scripture say that Adam's nature changed after he sinned? Where does Scripture say that everything an unsaved man does is sin?

It seems you've given me your opinion which seems to be drawn from inferences rather than clear statements in Scripture. I don't see anything that teaches original sin. Actually I see Scripture opposing the idea.

16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16 KJV)

I also didn't see anything in Scripture called "The Fall"

Seeing that his offspring were no longer in Gods image but his demonstrates the change in Adam

 

[Marvin Knox]

It's really just a matter of what text you believe is correct. I gave the reasons why I believe the singular reading is correct.
What reason is there to accept the plural reading as correct? One might say because there are more texts with the plural reading. However, that i just what w would expect. I would expect there to be fewer old texts than more recent ones. So, that really doesn't seem like a reason to accept it.

You seem to feel that you have been given a gift and or insights that has been sorely lacking in the church since at least the dark ages.

If you really feel that the Lord has given you expertise in these matter beyond what the vast majority of translators have had for the last thousand years or so - you should be using your insight in professional translation of the scripture IMO.

Perhaps then we could have a translation that is accurate rather than the hundreds that you feel are inaccurate in at least this area.

Seriously - I only say these thing partially tongue in cheek. If you have these talents and insights into the original Greek manuscripts and such that are lacking in the church - why are you spending so much time pecking away on the internet when you could be using your God given translation skills and insights for the benefit of the Church as a whole?

My leaving the Reformation thinking was simply a search for the truth. I head been taught both Calvinism and Arminianism from the same Scriptures, I was taught opposing doctrines. Since I don't believe the Scriptures teach opposing doctrines I knew at least one side was wrong. That bagan my search for the truth. I put everything I believed on the table and if a doctrine couldn't be found in Scripture it was gone. When I say found I mean expressly stated in Scripture, not by way of inference or the like, I look for clearly stated, logical doctrines

I agree that the scriptures do not teach opposing doctrines. But they definitely do teach paradoxical doctrines.

If you start with believing that one side of the paradox must be wrong - you are in that way missing the point of the way God has chosen to give us truth IMO.


I believe that these paradoxes or seeming contradictions are a test of sorts that the Lord is using. I believe that He wants to show forth those who would divide the church into factions by simply choosing a side.

"for there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you." 1 Corinthians 11:19

"Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." 1 Corinthians 1:12

I believe that the truth is found by accepting the two legs of the paradox and then praying and trying hard to see how they do not contradict each other.

If you simply throw out the side you think is weakest - you may not be given the insights that you would have been given had you not acted so rashly.


"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him." Matthew 13:12

I believe that the Reformed theologians generally have proceeded from this method and therefore are closer to the truth than the other side - who tends to not incorporate certain truths into their deliberations.

An example concerns predestination. Predestination and free will are not in conflict. But the non Reformed insist that they cannot both coexist. That is an error in thinking and the result is a big hole in their theology.

The Reformed generally see them as compatible and build on that premise. The result is a strong theology and not a weak sloppy theology as is often found on the other side.

Also - as I see things - if you expect to find all correct doctrine to be "expressly stated in Scripture" you're going to miss a whole lot of truth in the Bible. In fact you may even end up in error from not comparing scripture with scripture in your search for truth.

 

[rnmomof7]

In the six days of creation, we see everything God created was good. Please show us where anything He created was evil.

1 Samuel 16:14
Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.

1 Samuel 18:10
Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul's hand.

1 Kings 22:23
"Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you."

Judges 9:23
Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech,


Gen 37:20

Come now therefore, and let us slay him, and cast him into some pit, and we will say, Some evil beast hath devoured him: and we shall see what will become of his dreams.

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

The scriptures are filled with what WE would call evil ... The slaughter of women and children ordered by God, the slaughter of the infants in Egypt, and again in Israel ...the destruction of Sodom ...including the "innocent"

But we only see the actions.. not the final outcomes of what we call evil ...

The godly child born from a rape, the men that come to Christ in a prison ....

Not one thing occurs that God does not end in His divine purpose ...


Gen 45:8
So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.


Gen 50:20
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Rom.8:23
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Had He been even remotely responsible for their wickedness, He could not have righteously judged them.

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" [Romans 8:21-24]

 

[EmSw]

Indeed I know the giver


And then the question.. .why do some choose to and others not.. are they smarter ? more holy? more clever?

Are you smarter, holier, and more clever because you chose Him?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Marvin,

In all of that are you endorsing God's predestination and cause (as stated in the Westminster Confession of Faith) of the evil pedophile who raped a 14-month-old in Missouri? And the pedophile was invited to do it by the child's mother. And all of that was CAUSED by God, according to the WCF.

What a God!

I see you capitalized "CAUSED" in order to insinuate again an idea that I and the WCF have already cleared up from the start and many times since.

Please don't do things like that. They are not pleasing to God as they misrepresent the things that His children have said.

And - YES - God did predestine everything that has happened as a result of the sinful choices of His creation.

He had an infinite number of things that He could have done concerning this age. He knew the potential things just as clearly as He knew the things that we see actually happening in this age.

He chose this reality for His plan for this age. His plan for this age included free will for His creation.

He gave that free will knowing full well and in very minute detail all of the evil things that would be the result of the giving of that gift of free choice to His creation. Those things include the example you have given - they include the holocaust - and they include any other evil that have resulted from the misuse of the gift of choice.

God is omniscient. He "KNEW" all of the things that would happen as a result of His chosen action. There was not a chance that those things that He knew would happen would not happen. Therefore they were destined to happen from the second He acted to give fee will to His creatures.

The one predestining them to happen was God. There was no one else around. His act of actually giving free will as He had envisioned it being given (knowing full well the resultant evil that would ensue) was the actual act or "first cause" of all that would surely follow.

Not only did He give the free choice - He did in history exactly what He had envisioned Himself doing that would eventually lead to each of these sins.

Starting with the garden with the devil (and actually long before) and ending with the end of this age - He has been actively working in all areas that He planned from the start to work. Those include interacting with men in various ways including prayer - the movements of nations - who would exist and who would not - the events that have shaped the personality traits of each person who would hear the gospel and react to it by believing it or not - exactly who would and who would not hear the gospel ----- well - you understand surely that the list of His actions in our history would take thousands of years to chronicle and then would be lacking.


"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written." John 21:25

Talk about the understatement of the millennium! The Word of God has been active from the start and will be until the end of the age and beyond.


“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:10-11


".........all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together (consist) ." Colossians 1:16-17


"God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being............ " Acts 17:27-28

The bottom line of course is that He not only started the ball rolling in such a way that all of the things you could come up with for examples would happen - He has been actively involved in bringing them to past.

We don't have to defend God's holiness in all these things. He can defend Himself as He wishes or not. Ours is but to believe that He did these things even if it is difficult for us with our limited minds to do so.

This isn't really advanced theology.

Neither is it "Calvinistic" or the belief of any other sect. These truths can be held no matter what your soteriology happens to be.

I know that you know these things about Him. And yet you say "What a God" and that you could "never serve such a God."

Others here say the same kinds of things.

I don't get it. Is it that you are all so opposed to anything that might lend itself to believing Reformed theology that you are more willing to create a God in an image that is more palatable than the scriptures give us than you are willing to simply believe what the Word of God teaches.

I couldn't care less if you become a Calvinist as far as soteriology is concerned.

l do care that you accept these truths though - because they are so very basic to understanding the scriptures.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thank you for agreeing with me.

Not so fast. No, I didn't agree with you.

That is precisely my point. Butch was saying that the passage was about Christ, and His own Birth as a human. Clearly the passage does not lend itself to that interpretation. The whole point is that those who received Him and believe on Him do so by God's will, not their own.

No. v.12 is about how one receives Him; by believing in Him. v.13 is about who causes the new birth.

Their lineage, their flesh, and their will are not the source of God's birthing of them.

Right. The source of God giving new birth is based on receiving Christ, through believing in Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The real question is this: Is there any place where God is not?

The Bible does not indicate that God has taken up residence withIN His creation. Simple as that. I keep requesting verses that indicate that God resides withIN things and none have been provided. What has been provided do not tell us that God resides withIN created things.

The one exception would be the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers since Christ died on the cross.

The view of Marvin would have God residing in unbelievers. Where is that supported by Scripture? I offer 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of course that's the real question. And the answer is an very clear NO.

That's the council of the Word of God.

One simply cannot limit God's existence to only some parts of space and not others as you wish.

Then please provide any verse that teaches that God exists withIN created things. I do know that the Holy Spirit indwells believers since Christ's death on the cross. Does God exist in any unbeliever? Provide a verse if He does.

“Am I a God who is near,” declares the Lord,
“And not a God far off?”

Once more, this verse doesn't even come close to suggesting that God exists withIN created things.

(TRANSCENDENCE AND IMMANENCY)

“Can a man hide himself in hiding places
So I do not see him?” declares the Lord.
“Do I not FILL the heavens and the earth?” declares the Lord.”

God being everywhere (omnipresent) does NOT mean that He exists withIN every created thing. No one has yet proven the claim that He does.

(OMNIPRESENCE)

“……. ALL things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things consist (hold together)”

If believing these things be considered heresy in the eyes of anyone – I will still plead guilty to believing them.

None of these verses says what is being claimed; that God exists withIN created things.

What these verses say is that He exists everywhere, in withIN everything.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If God had not created what He created, none of the resultant events, actions and choices would have, or could have been made, or happen.

This does not support the notion that God is the first cause, just because He created humans (and angels) that sinned. One can just as easily claim that God created man's intellect with which to choose either good or evil.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

If God did not cause Judah to sin, neither did it come into His mind, who do you suppose caused Judah's abomination?

That question is impossible because once again you've cherry picked on verse and completely out of context so as to ask it.

In the six days of creation, we see everything God created was good. Please show us where anything He created was evil.

Have you not read Genesis 3? Verses 1 through 7?

Was the serpent that gained entry into the garden created by our omniscient omnipotent Father evil?

Perhaps you can show us God's sovereign will and plan in the Bible for all creation before it came to exist. Show us God's sovereign will for light and darkness, for sin and holiness, for truth and heresy, for honoring and dishonoring, for belief and unbelief.

What I've come to enjoy about this community, CF, is that by default the server program automatically links scripture that is included in someones post. This allows the students of the Bible to learn more. And it invites those who are new to the faith and-or the scriptures to learn them from that linked point forth.
While there is no resource that can assist those with no interest to learn a thing. Regardless of how many times the absolute predestination of all things is referred to, and linked to the scriptures.

What is His sovereign plan for you?

Non-Sequitur. Keep the discussion to the topic not the poster.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Then please provide any verse that teaches that God exists withIN created things. I do know that the Holy Spirit indwells believers since Christ's death on the cross. Does God exist in any unbeliever? Provide a verse if He does.

Once more, this verse doesn't even come close to suggesting that God exists withIN created things.


God being everywhere (omnipresent) does NOT mean that He exists withIN every created thing. No one has yet proven the claim that He does.


None of these verses says what is being claimed; that God exists withIN created things.

What these verses say is that He exists everywhere, in withIN everything.[/QUOTE] So, omnipresent doesn't mean eternally present everywhere at the same time?

Yes, yes, it does.
How could the source of all that exists, when that source is a spirit, not be within all that that source creates and manifests? When God, that source, that spirit, is the alpha of all that is.


While you asked for scripture that supports God is within his creation? Psalm 139, Romans 1:20.

 

[EmSw]

That question is impossible because once again you've cherry picked on verse and completely out of context so as to ask it.

If you have no answer, a simple I don't know will suffice.

Have you not read Genesis 3? Verses 1 through 7?

Was the serpent that gained entry into the garden created by our omniscient omnipotent Father evil?

Have you not read Ezekiel 28:13-15?

Ezekiel 28
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; very precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.

Do you think he was created evil or perfect?

Non-Sequitur. Keep the discussion to the topic not the poster.

I didn't think you could provide verses I asked.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

If you have no answer, a simple I don't know will suffice.

Doesn't seem that you take your own advice.


I knew this woman, she was free of grace also. And she would make these same kinds of arguments. Circular. And without receiving the education that others provided her in the group she attended. She just asked and asked the same thing and denied and denied what was taught by the professors of the class. Largely because she was on scholarship and was not at all interested in learning anything so as to achieve her degree. She just liked the free ride and enjoyed taking up space.

 

[tulipbee]

Indeed I know the giver


And then the question.. .why do some choose to and others not.. are they smarter ? more holy? more clever?

More like everyone else. All mankind don't care to bother to investigate in choosing the spiritual things of God cause they are born sinners. God picked us out according to His pleasure and not how dare we tell Him he isn't fair. If He picked out only one person then He is the greatest savior of the universe. Shame on you for telling God you deserved to be treated better. Shame