Is God sovereign or is He constrained by forms of government and the elected officials ?

[NeedyFollower]

In light of what has ( and is ) transpiring in the US regarding the election, I thought this might be a timely discussion. Knowing that I will give an account for my every word, I ask that you respond in Christian charity and meekness. I do not want to cause debate that is not edifying or that causes anyone else to sin with their words or their spirit.

 

[timewerx]

God is sovereign but such system won't work here on Earth because people are corrupt by nature.

Such system might only work if it's run by a computer, not by people.

 

[Widlast]

God is Lord of All, but He allows mankind to exercise their free will. Governments are run by men, men who often abuse their free will.

 

[NeedyFollower]

God is Lord of All, but He allows mankind to exercise their free will. Governments are run by men, men who often abuse their free will.

Hi brother ..I just read a book called The Faith a history of Christianity by Brian Monyhan. It seems that an idea of a "Christian" nation caused a lot of the wars and atrocities that catholics did to other catholics , catholics to protestants ( when they were in power ) protestants to catholics ( when protestants were in power ) the "church" towards jews, muslims , etc. Protestants towards each other as "heretics". Would it be fair to say that this is not a "Godly" country but secular since Jesus said that he that is not for me is against me . I say that in light of the fact that many Muslims associate Christianity with Americanism which in my opinion soils the glory of Christ ...attaching the unholy to the Holy.

 

[Widlast]

Hi brother ..I just read a book called The Faith a history of Christianity by Brian Monyhan. It seems that an idea of a "Christian" nation caused a lot of the wars and atrocities that catholics did to other catholics , catholics to protestants ( when they were in power ) protestants to catholics ( when protestants were in power ) the "church" towards jews, muslims , etc. Protestants towards each other as "heretics". Would it be fair to say that this is not a "Godly" country but secular since Jesus said that he that is not for me is against me . I say that in light of the fact that many Muslims associate Christianity with Americanism which in my opinion soils the glory of Christ ...attaching the unholy to the Holy.

In the history of the world there have only been 2 "Christian" nations, the Vatican and Mt. Athos. All others have been secular or pagan.

 

[NeedyFollower]

In the history of the world there have only been 2 "Christian" nations, the Vatican and Mt. Athos. All others have been secular or pagan.

Well with the understanding that there is one Lord, one Faith and one Baptism , I believe there is more likely a "kingdom" than a nation wherein Christ is the Lord...Jesus is Lord and King, faithful and true whether anyone (outside the church )accepts His lordship or not ..it just is. I guess in a sense this has existed prior to the Vatican/ Mt Athos since they are temporal and Christ is eternal. Stephen was/is a part of this Kingdom prior to being stoned. All of the believers ( still Jewish ) on the day of Pentecost , etc. As many as believed, to them he gave power to become the sons of God. ( I think that is from John . ) I think it more profitable for Christians (who are strangers and pilgrims ) and brothers and sisters/part of the family of God/the body of Jesus Christ while here on earth to love each other more than a temporal institution like a "nation'. Clearly we have not done that in the past .

 

[Widlast]

I think it more profitable for Christians (who are strangers and pilgrims ) and brothers and sisters/part of the family of God/the body of Jesus Christ while here on earth to love each other more than a temporal institution like a "nation'. Clearly we have not done that in the past .

Nations exist out of necessity, not love.

 

[A_Thinker]

Jesus said ... "My kingdom is not of this world." John 18:36

 

[Heis.risen]

ROmans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

In light of what has ( and is ) transpiring in the US regarding the election, I thought this might be a timely discussion. Knowing that I will give an account for my every word, I ask that you respond in Christian charity and meekness. I do not want to cause debate that is not edifying or that causes anyone else to sin with their words or their spirit.

If God is restrained by politics and the rulings of humans, then He is not who we, as Christians (and Jews before us) think He is. He created the universe--do you really believe that He has to obey men? Undoubtedly, he sends His agents to a lost and troubled world to work His loving mercy, righteousness and justice, but He is sovereign. He allows Islamic extremists to maim and kill others (as well as themselves) in the name of their "god" but He alone will determine their eternal destiny, as indeed, He determines that for every human.

 

[NeedyFollower]

If God is restrained by politics and the rulings of humans, then He is not who we, as Christians (and Jews before us) think He is. He created the universe--do you really believe that He has to obey men? Undoubtedly, he sends His agents to a lost and troubled world to work His loving mercy, righteousness and justice, but He is sovereign. He allows Islamic extremists to maim and kill others (as well as themselves) in the name of their "god" but He alone will determine their eternal destiny, as indeed, He determines that for every human.

I agree whole heartily ..I guess it was a rhetorical question in that those on" the right" were so concerned with the policies of President Obama and the "left" and those on the "left" were concerned with policies of the "right" which they felt impinged on their civil liberties. I am apolitical myself believing that God is sovereign and will have no other idol before Him whether it be a country, a system of government , etc. I am concerned that Christians in this country think too highly of ourselves and have assigned ourselves a place in the world that belongs to God. Regarding the quote from Heis.risen , Romans 13:1 , I agree. Nero I believe was the ruler at that time. I wonder did we as a country rebel against the higher power during the revolution and are now reaping what we have sown ? No one knows much about submission since in a democracy we are all our own sovereign. Paul said towards the end of Romans, to avoid those who cause discord contrary to the doctrines of Godliness since they serve their own belly ( or agenda -my translation ) and not Christ Jesus our Lord . Think about some of the quotes from early history " I have but one regret , that I only have but one life to give for my " Lord and Savior , Jesus Christ " ? No , he said for his country . Is this country an idol ?

 

[Widlast]

Think about some of the quotes from early history " I have but one regret , that I only have but one life to give for my " Lord and Savior , Jesus Christ " ? No , he said for his country . Is this country an idol ?

Very much so. I have always had a problem with the notion of "patriotism". My father was one of those who held the notion that the USA "could do no wrong". I being a bit more of a student of history than he, held no such illusions.

Reminds me of a quote from Hogan's Heroes (70s tv show). As I remember it, Corporal Newkirk was contemplating the virtues of a woman he had met and states "A country you can always get, but a good bird (woman) is hard to find."

 

[jasonwrites]

If God is not sovereign, if He is not omnipotent, then he is not God but just a god.
As noted above, Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world. We still have to live in the world though, and that means living under a government. Personally, I think Jesus made it clear that he was not in favor of theocracy or any merger of church and state when He said "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's, and render unto God what is God's."
It's all very patriotic and good-feeling to sing "God Bless America" and promote the idea of American exceptionalism with this notion that God somehow favors the USA, but I think that's all silly. In our free will, God has granted dominion over the affairs of men, to men. When people sincerely believe they are waging war in the name of God, they are deluded. If Satan does indeed have power in this world, then I am sure that's what he wants people to believe they are doing.
We are not a Christian nation, and we are not meant to be. Christians are called to love and aid their neighbors, not to govern them. The Founders did not try to establish this as a Christian nation, despite many conservative claims to the contrary. The most primary theme of U.S. history that involves a supposed mandate from God was the idea of "Manifest Destiny," the idea that European settlers had an actual divine right and even obligation to spread westward and overtake the continent, without showing much love at all to their neighbors who were already living there.

 

[MRHarvey]

Allow me to use an analogy ...

In 1215, King John of Medieaval England signed the Magna Carta. This charter limited the power of reigning kings and queens of England, for the rest of perpetuity. The charter is binding on all of the heirs and successors of King John, including the currently reigning Queen, namely, Queen Elizabeth II.

Queen Elizabeth is still sovereign, but her powers are limited.

God is sovereign, but over the millennia, He has bound Himself -- voluntarily, and of His own free will -- by a series of covenants that He has made with us humans.

In a word, God is both sovereign and constrained. He is not constrained by elected government officials, per se. But He is constrained by the covenants that He Himself has made.

 

[daleksteve]

In light of what has ( and is ) transpiring in the US regarding the election, I thought this might be a timely discussion. Knowing that I will give an account for my every word, I ask that you respond in Christian charity and meekness. I do not want to cause debate that is not edifying or that causes anyone else to sin with their words or their spirit.

god is soverign but the problem he has is that people have free will which makes him constrained at times.

I do strongly believe though that God disaproves of Trump as president and at those who voted for him.

But free will cause Christians to make bad decisions sometimes.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If I as s Father had kids and told them to go play in the sandbox and get along with each other and be nice etc and they went and started to fight and be selfish exercising the free will that they have within the bounds of thier nature . I as the Father can still go over and separate them grab one by the arm and put him in his room etc and that is because I as the Father am also free to exercise my will According to my nature . Just because I am stronger as the Father and can exercise my will doesn't make the kids lose thier freewill. They may scream and huff and rebell as I drag them to thier room or they may repent and reconcile

 

[Karole]

god is soverign but the problem he has is that people have free will which makes him constrained at times.

I do strongly believe though that God disaproves of Trump as president and at those who voted for him.

But free will cause Christians to make bad decisions sometimes.

Not necessarily on His disapproval of Trump. Remember that God will use even the most despicable human to accomplish the greatest of things. Trump may very well be part of His plan to redirect this country to where He would ultimately see it go. Doesn't mean everything Trump does accomplishes that goal or accomplishes that goal outright. He, Trump, could be the building of roads that will be used later in God's plan.

This is where we push out others from our Christianity when we say God approves/disapproves/can't use/whatever another soul. He can and will use us all. Will we disappoint? Absolutely. We all have a part to play. We may not see how that part fits into the whole but it does.

Like a knitted sweater. If you are only seeing one stitch or even a handful of stitches it looks like not much. Pull back from the knitted object and you see the beauty of all the stitches working together. Some stitches might be different than others yet they all make a beautiful blanket. However, you cut one of those stitches out thinking it has no role to play in the overall scheme of that blanket and the entire thing will slowly unravel.

God knows what he's doing. He steers us in the right direction. We may choose another path but He will always put another crossroad in your journey that he hopes you take. The choice is ours yet he's always there to guide us the right way.

 

[daleksteve]

.

Not necessarily on His disapproval of Trump. Remember that God will use even the most despicable human to accomplish the greatest of things. Trump may very well be part of His plan to redirect this country to where He would ultimately see it go. Doesn't mean everything Trump does accomplishes that goal or accomplishes that goal outright. He, Trump, could be the building of roads that will be used later in God's plan.

This is where we push out others from our Christianity when we say God approves/disapproves/can't use/whatever another soul. He can and will use us all. Will we disappoint? Absolutely. We all have a part to play. We may not see how that part fits into the whole but it does.

Like a knitted sweater. If you are only seeing one stitch or even a handful of stitches it looks like not much. Pull back from the knitted object and you see the beauty of all the stitches working together. Some stitches might be different than others yet they all make a beautiful blanket. However, you cut one of those stitches out thinking it has no role to play in the overall scheme of that blanket and the entire thing will slowly unravel.

God knows what he's doing. He steers us in the right direction. We may choose another path but He will always put another crossroad in your journey that he hopes you take. The choice is ours yet he's always there to guide us the right way.

Sorry, i don't believe God would use trump. there are plenty more decent people he could have used. this is the devils work, not Gods.

This man will do nothing good apart from dividing his country with the politics of hate.

 

[marineimaging]

In light of what has ( and is ) transpiring in the US regarding the election, I thought this might be a timely discussion. Knowing that I will give an account for my every word, I ask that you respond in Christian charity and meekness. I do not want to cause debate that is not edifying or that causes anyone else to sin with their words or their spirit.

In light of all that God offers, in view of the sacrifice made by His only begotten Son, think of all that we are missing by allowing the government to take away our relationship with Him in business, love, relationships, walking in the park, fishing, hunting, just plain living. The government interferes with everything while God gave each of us free will. God is sovereign and lays down the proof in that He doesn't need to run every facet of our lives such as the government does.

 

[Winken]

god is soverign but the problem he has is that people have free will which makes him constrained at times.

I do strongly believe though that God disaproves of Trump as president and at those who voted for him.

But free will cause Christians to make bad decisions sometimes.

God, our Creator, is not the source of problems, nor does He have "a problem." He does not ponder constrainment. He is Perfect, All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Those who remain outside confession of Jesus as Savior, Romans 10:8-13; outside of His promise in Romans 8:1; walk about in "free will," their status imperfect. They can choose (once) to be saved, or not choose. Those who have chosen Jesus as Savior, Romans 10:8-13, walk in the Promise of Romans 8:1.

Those scriptures represent a staggering difference between free will and saved, between "lost" and "found!" Their status is no longer those who wander about, in and out of "belief." They have become "the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus!"

Since God is Perfect, the Trinity the essence of Perfection, the blessed Gospel according to the Apostle Paul clearly reveals that those who are the Righteousness of God (Christian) walk in perfection, Jesus having paid the price and prepared them for their Spiritual appearance before Him at the Judgment Seat of Christ. That which is Spiritual cannot possibly be or become non-Spiritual. The Holy Spirit, once occupying the Christian, never departs.

The notion of "free will" for the Christian is replaced by the perfect sovereignty of God in this life and in the eternal life to come.

Free Will (noun)

1. The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. synonyms: self-determination, freedom of choice, autonomy, liberty, in-dependence, voluntarily, willingly, readily.
2. without reluctance, without compulsion, of one's own accord, of one's own volition, of one's own choosing.

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