Is God omnipotent and controls everything?

[Francis Drake]

Years ago, as an ordinary member of the congregation, I was asked to chair a bible discussion group at church. The subject I chose was "The character of God".

There were maybe 25 in the group and my intention was to draw out of people their own understanding, but I also had an ulterior motive. The group were a bit reluctant to volunteer at first, but by asking questions and fielding suggestions, I managed to open the people up to a good discussion.

As we drew to a close, based on the various points that had come out, I presented back to the group a list of characteristics for God to see if it was a fair conclusion.

They all agreed, including the pastor, that it was a fair report of the group.
"Congratulations" I said, "You have just described Allah, the God of Islam!"

Having listened to many conversations among the members, including the pastor, I could see their comprehension of God was flawed, and didn't know how to challenge them.
The discussion was an ideal opportunity for me.
Being given responsibility to lead the discussion, my part was simple, all I did was ask some leading questions, provoking certain responses which I knew they would give. They were entirely responsible for the conclusion which I was very careful to present back to see if anyone would challenge it. No one did.

To say they were shocked is an understatement. Their vision of God was effectively as a control freak. But when I read many of the posts on the forum, I see exactly the same characterisations being presented, far more suited to Allah than Yahweh!

Once they got over the shock, they were all very grateful, asking me to do a follow up discussion group.
As you might imagine, the pastor never asked me again!

 

[Hammster]

Years ago, as an ordinary member of the congregation, I was asked to chair a bible discussion group at church. The subject I chose was "The character of God".

There were maybe 25 in the group and my intention was to draw out of people their own understanding, but I also had an ulterior motive. The group were a bit reluctant to volunteer at first, but by asking questions and fielding suggestions, I managed to open the people up to a good discussion.

As we drew to a close, based on the various points that had come out, I presented back to the group a list of characteristics for God to see if it was a fair conclusion.

They all agreed, including the pastor, that it was a fair report of the group.
"Congratulations" I said, "You have just described Allah, the God of Islam!"

Having listened to many conversations among the members, including the pastor, I could see their comprehension of God was flawed, and didn't know how to challenge them.
The discussion was an ideal opportunity for me.
Being given responsibility to lead the discussion, my part was simple, all I did was ask some leading questions, provoking certain responses which I knew they would give. They were entirely responsible for the conclusion which I was very careful to present back to see if anyone would challenge it. No one did.

To say they were shocked is an understatement. Their vision of God was effectively as a control freak. But when I read many of the posts on the forum, I see exactly the same characterisations being presented, far more suited to Allah than Yahweh!

Once they got over the shock, they were all very grateful, asking me to do a follow up discussion group.
As you might imagine, the pastor never asked me again!

And?

 

[lsume]

I studied this briefly in a theological course.
Yes, God is most likely omnipotent. However, even if He has the potential to do anything, it doesn't mean he would. The beauty of Creation is Free Will, and if God was to assert control over everything, humans wouldn't have the ability to choose their own paths.
If God had the ability to do anything, He would've prevented the original sin. The original sin is, as I see it, the ultimate first test of free will. Without free will, there would be no grounds for evil- as God is only good. If there is no evil, there is nothing to compare goodness to and there is no way for humans to live lives that improve and grow. There would be no ultimate incentive to learn goodness through God if everything was peachy.

This is a very big theological question with a lot of different stances, so I'd be interested in hearing what other people have to say.

There is a very specific time when Christ must visit all of God’s elect. This great mystery is covered throughout The New Testament and is greatly overlooked by the majority. When you have gone through the rebirth in Christ, many things can then be understood. Please continue to share your faith.

 

[zoidar]

Foreordaining will. That’s from Webster, and I think it’s pretty good.

What it doesn’t mean is that God actively controls every single thing we do as if we were puppets.

Ah, then I used it correctly. I don't believe God forordains everything.

 

[Hammster]

Ah, then I used it correctly. I don't believe God forordains everything.

Then He foreordains nothing.

 

[zoidar]

People have free will but every choice is a reaction to a reason God used to solicit their choice. Therefore they choose what they want and are held accountable for it.

You mean like the boat is put in God's preordained canal. For the captain it feels like he has free will. He turns left when he wishes and turns right when he wishes, but he is all the time following the canal and cannot turn another way. The end of the boat at the end of the canal was predestined and preordained even before the boat was put in the canal or even existed.

Is this the Calvinistic notion?

 

[zoidar]

Then He foreordains nothing.

Why?

 

[Albion]

The end of the boat at the end of the canal was predestined and preordained even before the boat was put in the canal or even existed.

Is this the Calvinistic notion?

No. The biggest problem with this freewill vs predestination controversy is (IMO) that the assumption is made by a lot of people that those who believe in predestination must believe that EVERY LAST DECISION made by the individual has to have been preordained.

It's the decision to accept Christ as Lord and Savior that is predetermined, not every decision made in life.

To know the true God (i.e. Faith) requires Grace; it cannot simply be "figured out" like we'd do with whether or not to attend worship services this Sunday or whether or not to change jobs, etc. etc.

This is why we may be better off speaking of "Election" when we're talking about this, as opposed to "Predestination." It more clearly is referring to the one decision upon which salvation depends.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I studied this briefly in a theological course.
Yes, God is most likely omnipotent. However, even if He has the potential to do anything, it doesn't mean he would. The beauty of Creation is Free Will, and if God was to assert control over everything, humans wouldn't have the ability to choose their own paths.
If God had the ability to do anything, He would've prevented the original sin. The original sin is, as I see it, the ultimate first test of free will. Without free will, there would be no grounds for evil- as God is only good. If there is no evil, there is nothing to compare goodness to and there is no way for humans to live lives that improve and grow. There would be no ultimate incentive to learn goodness through God if everything was peachy.

This is a very big theological question with a lot of different stances, so I'd be interested in hearing what other people have to say.

I don’t think it is accurate to say that if God could’ve prevented Adam’s fall that He would have. Obviously the tree of knowledge could’ve easily been removed or never placed in the garden of Eden to begin with. The tree of knowledge was placed in the garden of Eden for a reason. God had already foreseen man’s disobedience and need of a Savior before creation and Adam’s fall was apparently just part of His plan. We can only speculate on the reasons.

 

[zoidar]

No. The biggest problem with this freewill vs predestination controversy is (IMO) that the assumption is made by a lot of people that those who believe in predestination must believe that EVERY LAST DECISION made by the individual has to have been preordained.

It's the decision to accept Christ as Lord and Savior that is predetermined, not every decision made in life.

To know the true God (i.e. Faith) requires Grace; it cannot simply be "figured out" like we'd do with whether or not to attend worship services this Sunday or whether or not to change jobs, etc. etc.

This is why we may be better off speaking of "Election" when we're talking about this, as opposed to "Predestination." It more clearly is referring to the one decision upon which salvation depends.

This is close to my understanding. Even I don't know if that is completely true. Thanks!

 

[Dave L]

You mean like the boat is put in God's preordained canal. For the captain it feels like he has free will. He turns left when he wishes and turns right when he wishes, but he is all the time following the canal and cannot turn another way. The end of the boat at the end of the canal was predestined and preordained even before the boat was put in the canal or even existed.

Is this the Calvinistic notion?

Here's a clear statement. If you think on it it shows we react to secondary causes God uses to control our will. But we choose what we want and experience the effects. The effects change us into the image of Christ if you keep on with scripture.

CHAPTER III. Of God’s Eternal Decree
GOD from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:https://www.christianforums.com/fil...Westminster Confession CHAPTER III.docx#_edn1 yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[ii] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[iii]


GOD from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:



Eph. 1:11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. Rom. 11:33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Heb. 6:17. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath. Rom. 9:15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Ver. 18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin


[ii] James 1:13. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. Ver. 17. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 1 John 1:5. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.


[iii] Acts 2:23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. Mat. 17:12. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed: likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Acts 4:27. For of a truth, against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together, Ver. 28. For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. John 19:11. Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. Prov. 16:33. The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.


II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions

 

[Yesha]

I voted "Yes, God has power over everything and controls everything."

I interpret the statement that "God has power over everything" to indicate his sovereignty which is displayed through his eternal decree. The Westminster Confession of Faith is helpful here:

WCF 3.1

I. GOD from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
​

I interpret the statement "and controls everything" to refer to God's providence. Again, the WCF is insightful:

WCF 5.1-3

I. GOD, the great Creator of all things, doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, according to his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will, to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.
III. God in his ordinary providence maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at his pleasure.​

In other words, God is sovereign over his creation, determining whatsoever comes to pass, yet he works providentially through secondary causes to carry out his eternal decree.

 

[Albion]

I don’t think it is accurate to say that if God could’ve prevented Adam’s fall that He would have.

That isn't what was said in that post, however.

 

[Dave L]

Meat automatons? No, God forms Christ in us through his foreordained course he puts us through. You cannot love unconditionally until you love enemies as you do yourself. And so trials of this nature cross our paths. But we exit with the likeness of Christ inscribed in our hearts. Through many tribulations, we enter the kingdom of God. But with more Christ-likeness, as we go.

 

[Hammster]

Why?

Because everything has an affect on something else. We may not understand how, but there’s always a connection.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

New thread, trying to pinpoint my question.

God knows all, could control all, but does not. Knowing what will happen doesn’t mean control.

Tonight I will watch “Wall Street” for the first time, knowing nothing about it but who’s in it, and I can bet you I know how it ends. Charlie Sheen has grit and drive but is naive, he is easily manipulated to immoral and unethical behavior by Michael Douglas who is devoid of any morality and only acts in his self interests, Charlie Sheen will have a crisis of conscience when Michael Douglas crosses the only moral line or thing of true value Charlie Sheen has and ultimately give up Michael Douglas, who will go to jail. Charlie Sheen will also be punished, but he will see it as righting his wrongs and will ultimately do his punishment as penance.

Does knowing how it will play out mean I controlled it? Of course not. But it doesn’t mean I don’t know.

 

[zoidar]

Because everything has an affect on something else. We may not understand how, but there’s always a connection.

Buttefly effect?

 

[Hammster]

Buttefly effect?

Actually, sorta. You have no idea how minor actions affect things down the road.

 

[grampster]

Isaiah 55:8 is a scripture that sort of puts a light on some of the questions we have about God and his ways. He tells us through Isaiah that we can't know all there is to know about him when we're in the flesh. 1 Corinthians 13:12 also sheds some light on some questions we have. We can read, ponder, pray about and accept the Word that we have in the bible, yet it appears we will not in this life totally "get it" with respect to all of the questions about God. As believers and redeemed, He reveals to us what He wants to reveal to us when we need to know...then, of course, we have to be listening. So, as I woke up this morning with the anxiety these times we live in have produced in all of us in some fashion, I recalled part of Psalm 37:7: "Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for Him...."

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don’t think it is accurate to say that if God could’ve prevented Adam’s fall that He would have.

That isn't what was said in that post, however.

If God had the ability to do anything, He would've prevented the original sin.

It appears to be saying exactly that.